Author Topic: ACM for the nubee  (Read 1018 times)

Offline Vortex01

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 75
      • http://molalla.net/~reeds
ACM for the nubee
« on: August 21, 2007, 06:11:38 PM »
HI I just collected and reorganized some info on ACM. I have put it into a simple step by step format so the new pilot can work on them without to much confusion. Let me know what you think and any changes I may need to make, (nice things are welcome too :-)

Fighter training page

http://www.molalla.net/~reeds/FighterTactics.htm

Nubees Home

http://www.molalla.net/~reeds/index.htm
"The green field, red barn and the lone silo, it is all that captures me eye as I fly....."  Memories of Red Baron on INN

Offline Vudak

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4819
ACM for the nubee
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2007, 12:55:35 AM »
Thanks for taking the time to put that all together :aok

I'm not really sure about the description for flat scissors.  You advise going "level flight for a short time" in between every turn...  I mean, that's one way to do it, but I wouldn't recommend it :)

Then again, it took me a LONG time to figure out what the scissors were, and what you've got there is a good starting point to at least have an idea of what the manuever is supposed to look like.  I wish I had that a few years ago :)
Vudak
352nd Fighter Group

Offline WMLute

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4512
ACM for the nubee
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2007, 01:34:03 AM »
If you in a rolling scissor w/ me (flat scissor) and go lvl at all you dead.
"Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity."
— George Patton

Absurdum est ut alios regat, qui seipsum regere nescit

Offline Traveler

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3148
      • 113th Lucky Strikes
ACM for the nubee
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2007, 08:46:27 AM »
As an FAA Certificated Flight Instructor I am always happy to see helpful information about flying published.  There is good information on the sites you published, however, there is also information that is just flat out wrong, and if followed in a real airplane in the real world might kill you.

just one example is the following:



 Standard turn

 A standard turn is when the wings are out of alignment with the horizon, with the aircraft tilted to the left or right.  A little rudder applied in the opposite direction will prevent the nose form dropping , keeping you in a nice steady turn. The greater the tilt of the wings the tighter the turn at a given speed, also more rudder will need to be applied.

First, a Standard Turn or Standard Rate Turn is a bank angle that results in a two minute turn, that is, it takes two minutes for the aircraft in level flight to make a 360 degree turn.  

Second, When ever you apply opposite rudder you put the aircraft into a cross controlled situation.  Not something you want to do.  You use the rudder to center the ball, period.  In a steep banked turn, the only way to keep the nose on the horizon is to center the ball and apply back pressure on the stick to maintain level flight.  If the nose drops shallow the bank. If the nose raised above the horizon just steepen the bank. If the nose raised use a steeper bank angle. But the ball stays centered using Rudder.

In any turn you have to roll the aircraft into a Bank, Lift of the wings is what turns an aircraft, not rudder. When you bank the aircraft the lift is offset and pulls the aircraft in that direction.  

The offset lift component is less then when the aircraft is in level flight.  Therefore the pilot is required to increase back pressure just to maintain level flight.  The increased back pressure increases the angle of attack (AOA).  

The steeper the bank, the more back pressure is required to maintain level flight and the greater the AOA becomes.  If the critical AOA is reached, the wing stalls, in a steep turn of 45 to 60 degrees to the right, the left wing has a greater AOA and will reach the critical AOA before the right wing.  

When this happens it’s called an Accelerated Stall.  If the ball is centered all that happens in an Accelerated Stall is that the high wing loses lift and drops down until the AOA for the bank angle is no longer critical. In effect the aircraft roles wings level.  

If however, you were holding left rudder to maintain a steep level turn to the right, well that turn at the moment of stall now becomes a snap roll in the opposite direction of the rudder input.  Your steep right turn becomes an inverted flat spin to the right.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2007, 08:51:16 AM by Traveler »
Traveler
Executive Officer
113th LUcky Strikes
http://www.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/113th_Lucky_Strikes

Offline Vortex01

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 75
      • http://molalla.net/~reeds
Thanks
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2007, 10:42:34 AM »
Yes you are correct I should have reviewed that clip a little closer, as you said be aware of what you read online. :-) Anything else you see that should be changed?

Keep in mind to that this is for new "fighter" pilots so they have something to work on in the trainign arena. It is not something you should be using in combat until you are able to do them without thinking of the particulars. For example going level in the scissors is so the new guy can keep his orientaion while learning to do the maneuver.

Also I would reccomend filming yourself so you can review and modify your actions for better performance.
"The green field, red barn and the lone silo, it is all that captures me eye as I fly....."  Memories of Red Baron on INN

Offline DamnedRen

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2164
ACM for the nubee
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2007, 10:59:53 AM »
While Traveller is correct you will find cross controlling can be used as an airbrake in a knife fight. If you plane to use it you need to understand two things;

Step on high wing rudder in the turn but only to minimize closure or you're about to saddle up.
Do NOT pull fast on the stick when you are stomping rudder or you will snap roll.

Actually its a very good idea to practice snap rolls until you can enter AND exit them on command.

Hope this helps.

Offline Decrepus

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5
ACM for the nubee
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2007, 12:16:41 PM »
This site was helpful!

How am I supposed to learn gunnery without tracers on? Even with them I miss terribly - with no reference I don't think I will ever hit anything. My gunnery is abysmal but I will try it out with one of these new sights.

(I have a 1.64% hit percentage from looking at the score table. Also if I have tracers off will other players still see them?)

Thanks.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2007, 12:18:54 PM by Decrepus »

Offline Vortex01

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 75
      • http://molalla.net/~reeds
Gunnery
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2007, 12:21:51 PM »
Not great at gunnery myself but if you use the targeting aid in the offline mode or training arena with tracers off you find that you get a better "eye" for leading your target.
"The green field, red barn and the lone silo, it is all that captures me eye as I fly....."  Memories of Red Baron on INN

Offline DamnedRen

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2164
ACM for the nubee
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2007, 12:44:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Decrepus
This site was helpful!

How am I supposed to learn gunnery without tracers on? Even with them I miss terribly - with no reference I don't think I will ever hit anything. My gunnery is abysmal but I will try it out with one of these new sights.

(I have a 1.64% hit percentage from looking at the score table. Also if I have tracers off will other players still see them?)

Thanks.


Tracers on enemy sees em, tracers off enemy no sees em. :)

Tracers have a tendency to have you chase the target with them. Waste of ammo.
They also have a tendency to obscure the target cause of all the tracer smoke. Again waste of ammo.
They also tell the guy yer shooting at that he's being shot at. So much for the element of surprise if you miss on that first shot.

If you want to learn gunnery go into the TA and hit ctrl tab. This turns on "lead compute sighting" and shows you exactly where you need to aim to hit the target. The big thing it does is to show you how far you must really lead the guy to hit him. Most folks never lead enough to hit anything. You chose your targetting by hitting the tab key to cycle through the planes to the on your are practicing with. There is more to gunnery but this is a good starting point. Get with a trainer. Turn offf tracers and turn em on. Try em both out and see what you like to use. Turn off Lead compute by just hitting ctrl tab again. This feature will not work in the MA's.

When I want to have fun I turn tracers on. I like throwing stuff out there to see the guys reaction. :)

Hope this helps.

Offline Decrepus

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5
ACM for the nubee
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2007, 12:55:07 PM »
That was very helpful Ren thankyou!

Offline DamnedRen

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2164
ACM for the nubee
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2007, 01:31:20 PM »
Wanna know another secret? Never take more than 1/2 tank of gas. You will never need more than that when yer learning. It's ok to take a drop tank but get rid of it as soon as you see the bad guys.

You will run out of ammo before you ever run out of gas.

:)

Offline FBplmmr

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1012
ACM for the nubee
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2007, 04:52:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DamnedRen
Wanna know another secret? Never take more than 1/2 tank of gas. You will never need more than that when yer learning. It's ok to take a drop tank but get rid of it as soon as you see the bad guys.

You will run out of ammo before you ever run out of gas.

:)



typically I run out of airplane before I run out of ammo or gas:D

Offline CAP1

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22287
      • The Axis Vs Allies Arena
ACM for the nubee
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2007, 10:00:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Traveler
As an FAA Certificated Flight Instructor I am always happy to see helpful information about flying published.  There is good information on the sites you published, however, there is also information that is just flat out wrong, and if followed in a real airplane in the real world might kill you.

just one example is the following:



 Standard turn

 A standard turn is when the wings are out of alignment with the horizon, with the aircraft tilted to the left or right.  A little rudder applied in the opposite direction will prevent the nose form dropping , keeping you in a nice steady turn. The greater the tilt of the wings the tighter the turn at a given speed, also more rudder will need to be applied.

First, a Standard Turn or Standard Rate Turn is a bank angle that results in a two minute turn, that is, it takes two minutes for the aircraft in level flight to make a 360 degree turn.  

Second, When ever you apply opposite rudder you put the aircraft into a cross controlled situation.  Not something you want to do.  You use the rudder to center the ball, period.  In a steep banked turn, the only way to keep the nose on the horizon is to center the ball and apply back pressure on the stick to maintain level flight.  If the nose drops shallow the bank. If the nose raised above the horizon just steepen the bank. If the nose raised use a steeper bank angle. But the ball stays centered using Rudder.

In any turn you have to roll the aircraft into a Bank, Lift of the wings is what turns an aircraft, not rudder. When you bank the aircraft the lift is offset and pulls the aircraft in that direction.  

The offset lift component is less then when the aircraft is in level flight.  Therefore the pilot is required to increase back pressure just to maintain level flight.  The increased back pressure increases the angle of attack (AOA).  

The steeper the bank, the more back pressure is required to maintain level flight and the greater the AOA becomes.  If the critical AOA is reached, the wing stalls, in a steep turn of 45 to 60 degrees to the right, the left wing has a greater AOA and will reach the critical AOA before the right wing.  

When this happens it’s called an Accelerated Stall.  If the ball is centered all that happens in an Accelerated Stall is that the high wing loses lift and drops down until the AOA for the bank angle is no longer critical. In effect the aircraft roles wings level.  

If however, you were holding left rudder to maintain a steep level turn to the right, well that turn at the moment of stall now becomes a snap roll in the opposite direction of the rudder input.  Your steep right turn becomes an inverted flat spin to the right.



Traveler.......where in new jersey dude?
i'm in soutrh jersey near cherry hill.......and i fly out of VAY(south jersey regional)

<>

john
ingame 1LTCAP
80th FS "Headhunters"
S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning in a Bottle)

Offline Traveler

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3148
      • 113th Lucky Strikes
Re: Thanks
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2007, 07:28:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vortex01
Yes you are correct I should have reviewed that clip a little closer, as you said be aware of what you read online. :-) Anything else you see that should be changed?

Keep in mind to that this is for new "fighter" pilots so they have something to work on in the trainign arena. It is not something you should be using in combat until you are able to do them without thinking of the particulars. For example going level in the scissors is so the new guy can keep his orientaion while learning to do the maneuver.

Also I would reccomend filming yourself so you can review and modify your actions for better performance.

I think it's a great site with a lot of good information.  I would just alter the dialog to remind new pilots to keep the ball centered, unless the maneuver calls for a crossed controlled situation.

In aviation training there is what is known as the “Law of Primacy “, that means that what a student pilot learns first is what is retained.  If they learn it wrong the first time,  that’s how they will always do it, the wrong way, such as holding top rudder (left rudder) in a steep right bank to hold the nose on the horizon.  

That’s why in the real world of aviation students pilots learn all the bad habits of their instructors.
Traveler
Executive Officer
113th LUcky Strikes
http://www.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/113th_Lucky_Strikes

Offline Traveler

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3148
      • 113th Lucky Strikes
Bicycle Darts and Dad
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2007, 08:27:55 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Decrepus
This site was helpful!

How am I supposed to learn gunnery without tracers on? Even with them I miss terribly - with no reference I don't think I will ever hit anything. My gunnery is abysmal but I will try it out with one of these new sights.

(I have a 1.64% hit percentage from looking at the score table. Also if I have tracers off will other players still see them?)

Thanks.


My Dad flew P47's and later P51's in WWII.  When I was a kid of 6 or 7 I asked him once about tracers, as usual he answered my question first with a question of his own, he asked me what I thought the tracers were for?  I told him I thought they were used to set the enemy plane on fire and he told me he could see where I might think that, but it was so the pilot could adjust his aim point.  He could see I had no idea what he was talking about, then with my toy airplanes he tried his best to explain physics and G forces, lights are on but nobody home.  

Then he put me on my bicycle and he dug out his bicycle and we road down to the local A&P, it was Sunday so the store was closed, parking lot empty.  I was armed with my spring loaded dart gun and three fire red darts with the black suction tip (that was back in the days when parents gave their kids toy guns and even dart guns to play with)  and my challenge was to shoot him with the dart.  

My Dad just road his bike in a tight circle with me on my bike, chasing his six.  Seeing him but not able to hit him with my dart, not at first.  But after a few tries I was hitting him each time.  I could see the flight path of the dart and I had learned to adjust my aim point by leading the target.  

That’s why they use tracers, because you can’t see a speeding bullet.  Some in the game would say don’t use tracers because it gives your position away to a target that you managed to close on without his knowing it.  

But if you have closed to within killing range on an unsuspecting target and open up, with or without tracers, he’s going to be dead.   If you are firing at a target before being within killing range then with or without tracers you are just wasting ammo.

One reason I always carry tracers is because when covering a wingman if he has an enemy on his six, putting a load of tracers on the Bandit does a lot to get their attention and cause them to break away from my wingman.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2007, 08:31:08 AM by Traveler »
Traveler
Executive Officer
113th LUcky Strikes
http://www.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/113th_Lucky_Strikes