U.S. most armed country with 90 guns per 100 people

[Charon]

Why can you own a bolt action 303 (the fastest working bolt in the world and 10 shot) but not a garand with it's 8 shot mag? Why can you own the most deadly close range firearm, a shotgun, that any criminal can cut down to pistol length in 15 minutes but no handguns for citizens to defend against him?

I was thinking that too. My Enfield No. 5 Mk1 is practically the assault rifle of bolt actions. The garand does have an edge on WW2 era bolt actions but they were plenty deadly 1914-1918 and 1939-1942. A lot of what I like about the garand is not lethality related either. England made the Enfield into the 1950s and India made it into the 1980s.

IMO so called "assault weapons" -- so called because the real ones are full auto -- would not necessarily be my first choice for a lot of extreme situations. The rounds lack both penetration and stopping power relative to your typical .30 cal weapon. They are lighter, but then in most of the worst case scenarios the concern is personal defense (not offense) and a pistol is easier to conceal and lighter still. And if it's ever Revolution #2 I would want something like black tipped AP 30-06 in a garand or bolt to deal with body armor.

Assault weapons really need the auto capability to be anything special. Probably why I haven't bought any yet along with the fact that most are basically commercial weapons today and lack the history.

What's funny too is Brady lists a variety of "assault weapon" incidents on their site. And it is not uncommon to find that the criminals used a variety of weapons, including "assault rifles" and "assault pistols" but the deadliest weapons used were shotguns.

Charon

[lasersailor184]

Originally posted by Angus
As for this one:
"Anyway, most liberals will have you believe that guns cause crime in the US."
I belive they have a point. With more in outr cirkulation at least, you would certainly have more corpses.
USA seperates it from the rest of the western world regarding crime rate AND weapon  ownership BTW. The difference is actually stunning.

The reason crime is so high here is the black and inner city culture.  If you were to analyze crime rates outside of the cities, you'd see that it's actually very reasonable.

Don't forget, someone is going to commit a crime whether or not they have a gun.

[Jackal1]

From a U.S. point of view, it just takes a short read here to see why we need to hold on and protect the old parchment document with every thing within our power.
The kicking, screaming and lame excuses by those who have freely given up or lost their rights and have no choice makes it pretty clear.
Helpless and "at the mercy of is just that"........helpless.

[Kaw1000]

Whats the problem....our Goverment is going to take away all our rights without firing a shot anyway....or....the slant eye country will just call in all our treasury bonds and just own our country:eek:

[Xargos]

We also have an open border to our south.  The police in many areas are not aloud to stop crime because that would mean they would have to arrest illegals, which would be seen as harassment.

[Angus]

One point is that you can't hose down a classroom with what we have, and you'll have trouble defending against multiple SWAT going after you.
I look at it as a privilege and a part of MY right not to have a possible anyone with a Tommygun

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by Angus
I look at it as a privilege and a part of MY right not to have a possible anyone with a Tommygun

.......and yet it is very  possible. Only the law abiding abides by the law...in any country.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Curval
Well, maybe lazs et al will read your first paragraph (quoted) and challenge you on it, because the inference is clear that not owning guns is related to fear and sexual problems during this little discussion.  Disagree, or would you like me to quote the text?

[/b]

I gave my opinion. As you know, opinions are like noses, everyone has one.

I may or may not be challenged on it; that would be unimportant. Approval/Disapproval was not my purpose when I posted that. I was merely stating my opinion.

If others think not owning guns is related to fear/sexual problems, well, that would be their opinion, wouldn't it? One of the nice things here in the US is that pretty much everyone accepts that people are entitled to their opinions. It's that free speech thing that so many non-US folks find confusing. Everyone is entitled to speak their piece, even if they hold an unpopular opinion. That clearly does not mean that such a person would not have other folks exercising their right to speak and disagreeing completely with the original speaker. It does not mean freedom from criticism.

I don't know about you but I expect to read a lot of different opinions on this BBS. Reading opinions that I don't agree with is part of the deal and no big thing.

One thing I always try to keep in mind though: my opinion may be wrong. So I try to keep an open mind when I read threads here. Never hurts to learn something new, does it?

Your second (quoted) paragraph though puts you squarely back into the "we are better, tougher and more free because we have guns" camp.  

[/b]

I don't think so. As FBBone pointed out, it's more about choice although that is incomplete. It's about the choice I have to exercise one of my Constitutional rights.

A choice that does not exist for folks in some other countries. That too is fine by me. I'm happy where I live, I'm sure they are happy where they live, and best of all, I'm happy they live where they live.  

I think you prefer the way Bone said it because the way I said it is a little too close to the uncomfortable truth.

Lastly, with respect to your comment on US folks feeling free to comment on Euros here, I'd point out that this is clearly a US-centric board.

While some non-US folks seem to make it their mission to come here to a US-centric board and point out the failings and shortcomings of the US and US citizens, I don't think very many of the folks on the AH BBS seek out a Euro or non-US centric BBS and go there to criticize.

Indeed, here on this US-centric board we do discuss non-US countries, customs and problems. Essentially though, this is amongst ourselves, in our own living rooms so to speak. I'm sure some of our non-US visitors find this offensive and we should perhaps be more thensitive.

I doubt if it could be considered nearly as offensive as some of the AH BBS US folks going to a Euro centric board and repeatedly pointing out the failings and shortcomings of Europe, however. Do you agree?

[Charon]

One point is that you can't hose down a classroom with what we have, and you'll have trouble defending against multiple SWAT going after you.

Fortunately, you're more likely to be hit by lightning that ever be involved in such an incident - a fact.

The deadliest weapons used in such events (when multiple weapons are present) tend to be a standard shotgun - a fact.

There are literally thousands of common activities that put you more at risk than the likelihood of being involved in a mass shooting - another fact.

For that matter, alcohol and arson from a more criminal perspective - another fact.

Terrorists don't even typically go the shooting route -- it's just not deadly enough - another fact (though maybe the whole victim disarmament zone concept will now start to get on their radar).

So called Assault weapons (actually ANY type of rifle) are used in homicide less than 2 percent of the time according to the FBI - fact.

The average number of shots fired in a crime, according to the FBI is about 3  and virtually any weapon carries more ammunition than that - fact. The weapon of choice with general criminal activity used to be a cheap revolver. The "glock" craze may have changed that, but apparently criminals are still not firing more rounds than you would with a revolver. Few gun control folk in the US advocate a ban on revolvers, or even semi-auto magazines below 10 rounds.

They are not trying to ban these weapons over here because of fact -- a real world need. They are trying to ban them simply because they think they can because people, by and large, are ignorant of the facts and driven by emotion. They can be easily manipulated by propaganda, TV shows and Movies. Simple as that.

Even Cho at Virginia tech didn't "hose" down a classroom. He locked everyone inside, and methodically went around, taking his time, shooting them one by one. Fortunately for him, it was a gun free zone, where you can't legally carry a weapon (even if you are licensed to do so in the state). Unfortunately for his classmates, he didn't pay attention to that regulation. Had he used a shotgun he wouldn't have had to shoot so many of them more than once -- amply illustrated at Columbine. Had a teacher or student possessed a legal weapon it would likely have ended much sooner with less loss of life. There are factual examples where this is the case.

BTW, no firearm was used in the rape and murder of the Petit family.

Charon

[Curval]

"I think you prefer the way Bone said it because the way I said it is a little too close to the uncomfortable truth."

No, I liked the way he put it because your comment was factually wrong and simply an attempt to be....a richard.  

Note that Bone recognised your chest puffing attempt to show how much "better" you guys in the US as a result of your gun ownership.  I'm sure that isn't what you meant to imply though...right?

As to your Euro-centric vs US board rant...I post here because I used to fly the online sim that everyone else here has or does.  

Are you suggesting that non US people people who post in the O'Club should not have an opinion?  We should simply stay silent and be greatful that you mighty US guys "allow" us to post?  On the internet?

lol

What a wonderfully friendly concept.

"I doubt if it could be considered nearly as offensive as some of the AH BBS US folks going to a Euro centric board and repeatedly pointing out the failings and shortcomings of Europe, however. Do you agree?"

I have no idea.  I don't come here to simply point out failing and shortcomings of Europe or the US...it is not my reason-d'etre as you seem to think it is.  

Having read your post now a few times it appears that you are very tensitive about this particular topic and find it ironic that you accuse others of the same.

[Angus]

Ehm, charon, perhaps:
"Fortunately, you're more likely to be hit by lightning that ever be involved in such an incident - a fact. "

You actually are 10 times more likely to get shot dead in the USA than killed by a lightning. So stay away from Wyoming



You are also on a norm, 3 times more likely to get murdered than a European. As well as much more likely to end up in an armed robbery situation. And being raped.  And bear in mind, that the "Euros" have a bigger headcount than the USA as well as living on smaller turf, as well as having more languages and multicultures.
Cause?
I mean, come on, how did all your presidents get shot anyway ?
(Okay, Kennedy got Sniped, but the others got shot with a handgun)

Linkie (I know many of you hate the info from Wiki, but I couldn't resist)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States

Here:

"The homicide rate in the United States of America is higher than that of other developed countries,[6][7][8] with firearms used to commit 68% of the 14,860 homicides in the United States during 2005. This makes the U.S. have the highest rate of firearm related homicides among developed countries.[9][10] Many more suffer non-fatal gunshot wounds, with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) estimating 52,447 violence-related and 23,237 accidental gunshot injuries in the United States during 2000"
And why I ask again:
" In metropolitan areas, the homicide rate in 2005 was 6.1 per 100,000 compared with 3.5 in non-metropolitan counties"
3.5 in the countryside? That's twice as high as in the UK yes?
Call me dull, but I see a simple relevancy between a lot of available firearms and corpses. Actually the non-gun-related murder rate in the USA is on pair with Europe.
Statistics suck don't they,,,,

[Toad]

Originally posted by Curval

No, I liked the way he put it because your comment was factually wrong and simply an attempt to be....a richard.  

My comment is factually correct in most of the countries represented by non-US posters on this BBS.

At the end of the day, where firearm ownership is allowed at all, it comes down to one petty little perfumed prince of a law enforcement officer who makes the final decision. It is up to him and he does not have to show reason for denial. In many countries, his decision is final and cannot be challenged.

Note that Bone recognised your chest puffing attempt to show how much "better" you guys in the US as a result of your gun ownership.  I'm sure that isn't what you meant to imply though...right?

[/b]

I challenge you to show where I said or even implied that "guys in the US as a result of your gun ownership" are "better". I just pointed out we have a Constitutionally guaranteed choice and I like it that way. It is better for me but it might not be better for you in Bermuda. It's a personal choice I have that I enjoy and appreciate. I especially appreciate the fact that some local cop can't rule over me and that there is a system in place to protect my rights and prevent such a person from abusing them.  I think that is better, much better, but it is not a factor of gun ownership per se, it's a matter of Constitutional rights.

Are you suggesting that non US people people who post in the O'Club should not have an opinion?  We should simply stay silent and be greatful that you mighty US guys "allow" us to post?  On the internet?

lol

[/b]

Of course not. However, this is a perfect example of non-US folks not understanding free speech. You are free to speak your bit, no problemo. However, don't get your panties in a wad when others exercise their free speech to totally disagree with you.

I have no idea.  I don't come here to simply point out failing and shortcomings of Europe or the US...it is not my reason-d'etre as you seem to think it is.

[/b]

Perhaps not your raison-d'etre but it seems you never miss a chance.

I think you realize how offensive it would be for some US AH BBS folks to go to a Euro board and constantly criticize, don't you? Poor form, eh, wot? Would certainly twist some knickers, I think. Yet you don't seem to understand it when that same reaction occurs here.
 

Having read your post now a few times it appears that you are very tensitive about this particular topic and find it ironic that you accuse others of the same.

Yep, that's me. Thensitive. I'm tho HURT.

I guess we'll just have to disagree on that too.

Just trying to give you a glimpse of what it looks like from a different perspective. Feel free to ignore it.

[Curval]

Originally posted by Toad
My comment is factually correct in most of the countries represented by non-US posters on this BBS.

At the end of the day, where firearm ownership is allowed at all, it comes down to one petty little perfumed prince of a law enforcement officer who makes the final decision. It is up to HIM (emphasis mine) and he does not have to show reason for denial. In many countries, his decision is final and cannot be challenged.



Huge generalisation and wrong.

Please give me an example of who "him" might be...in a country represented by posters here please.

I challenge you to show where I said or even implied that "guys in the US as a result of your gun ownership" are "better". I just pointed out we have a Constitutionally guaranteed choice and I like it that way. It is better for me but it might not be better for you in Bermuda. It's a personal choice I have that I enjoy and appreciate. I especially appreciate the fact that some local cop can't rule over me and that there is a system in place to protect my rights and prevent such a person from abusing them.  I think that is better, much better, but it is not a factor of gun ownership per se, it's a matter of Constitutional rights.



You challenge me?

I'll let Bone do the talking...he seemed to think you were doing some chest puffing:

"I'd say he thinks we're "better", because we have the choice (for now at least) to own guns or not, kinda like he wrote."

Of course not. However, this is a perfect example of non-US folks not understanding free speech. You are free to speak your bit, no problemo. However, don't get your panties in a wad when others exercise their free speech to totally disagree with you.

lol

You are the one whose panties are wadding, with your long detailed posts.

Perhaps not your raison-d'etre but it seems you never miss a chance.

Good stuff...at least you do correct some generalisations you make.  But, then you go and make another.  Hilarious.  I'm gonna have to start calling you General Toad....and not because of anything to do with the military.

I think you realize how offensive it would be for some US AH BBS folks to go to a Euro board and constantly criticize, don't you? Poor form, eh, wot? Would certainly twist some knickers, I think. Yet you don't seem to understand it when that same reaction occurs here.

Hypothetical situation:

Toad, you discover a new flight sim.  You join and then begin posting on its BBS.  It is a site owned by a guy sitting in....Germany....but is in English.

You make a few friends and have a few good laughs.

After a while though you start to notice thread after thread slagging Americans.

Do you:

(a)  Recognise the fact that it is a Euro Centric site and leave.
(b)  Recognise the fact that is a Euro Centric site but stay and cotinue to post but never defend America or Americans?
(c)  Start adding your 2 cents?

Be honest...because I already know the answer.

Just trying to give you a glimpse of what it looks like from a different prespective.

Just trying to give you a glimpse of what it looks like from a different perspective. Feel free to ignore it.

SNAP!

Not to worry...I will.  

[SteveBailey]

with firearms used to commit 68% of the 14,860 homicides in the United States during 2005.

Happily, a large portion of these homicides were gang mebers killing other gang members.  I'm fine with that.  much tax payer money saved here.

[Toad]

England:

"A firearm certificate shall be granted where the Chief Officer of Police is satisfied that:
- the applicant is fit to be entrusted with a firearm to which Section 1 of this Act applies, and
- is not a person prohibited by this Act from possessing such a firearm."

http://www.met.police.uk/firearms-enquiries/f_fit1.htm

All comes down to one little perfumed prince.

How would the Commissioner of Police in Bermuda react to a request by a Bermudan to own/carry a firearm?  

Bone merely said what I said; we in the USA have a Constitutionally guaranteed choice regarding firearms. You are the one that attributes chest-puffing to such simple statements.  You'll note I don't condemn the way other countries handle their firearms other than to say that I'm very glad it is not that way here. Is that chest-puffing?

If Britain wants to ban private ownership of handguns or if Bermuda wants to confiscate guns.. that is their choice. It doesn't affect me and I don't care. I feel sorry for those sportsmen that can no longer practice their sport but that's about the end of it.

I make detailed posts because the short ones are often deliberately twisted by others. I try to be clear and that requires detail.

As for your raison-d'etre here, I'll just say your posts speak volumes. A quick click of the search button will bring up your posting history and folks can evaluate for themselves. The written history is there.

If I were a visitor to a Euro BBS and folks started slagging the US, I'd present my opinion in a polite way. I'd realize others have their own opinions and I'd accept that people would sometimes disagree. I seriously doubt I'd go around accusing people of questioning my manhood over my position on some issue. I doubt I'd continually find fault with the Euro countries and I seriously doubt I'd get to be a poster that never missed a chance to jump in and slag back. In short, I'd post there like I post here.

Lastly, if it really bothered me I'd just leave the BBS. I doubt it would bother me much for all of the above reasons.