B25 Tank Killer!

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
All this talk about B-25Hs killing tanks in one shot directly contradicts my own experiences.  I fired at a Firefly, hitting on the left side of the turret and I watched as my 75mm round bounced off into the air and hit a friendly IL2 in the wing that resulted in my death by killshooter.

I re-upped and made a pass at a Panzer and watched my 75mm rounds bounce off.  Only when I hit the track did I do any damage to it, immobilizing it.  I was then able to make repeated passes on the rear of the Panzer and eventually took it out but only when a friendly came and finished it off with some rockets.

Only when I was going after light armored vehicles like an Ostie or M8 did I ever achieve a 1 hit kill.


ack-ack

You have to get close, real close. Under 300 yards is best.

Also, I have seen 75mm bounce off tanks too. They should not. These rounds would be fitted with contact fuzes, which will detonate between 12 and 20 milliseconds after impacting any substantial object, even up to 70 degrees oblique. Fuzing could be changed to delayed fuzes, hardened fuzes, VT fuzes and so on. However, those used by B-25s would have the standard contact fuze (M48 fuze, I believe).

My regards,

Widewing

[Krusty]

E25280, yes I have. Have you read mine?

I've taken a tank and forgotten AP rounds enough times to know that HE rounds from larger, better, guns than on the B-25H still don't kill like it does. Meanwhile, while you're firing multiple rounds dead on to the enemy, he notices you and kills you in 1.


As an aside: Forgetting AP rounds while in a GV sucks!

EDIT: hey, it's possible I'm over-reacting a little -- but some of it is warranted.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Krusty
OMFG!! Did you get this on film?!?! I'd LOVE to see!


Bronk: Ju87Gs are dogmeat if a fighter finds them. So are IL2s. So are many other planes with anti-tank-guns throughout the war. Enemy air cover wasn't always around, didn't always know where you were, and often these anti-tank planes could get in and get out before fighters found them.

Unfortunately, due to the film bug it didn't save.  It was funny though, still is actually ^__^


ack-ack

[Stoney74]

The targeting system for the historical 75mm gun on the B-25H made it a radar guided weapon.  The radar operator locked up the target and adjusted the radar return between two tick marks on the radar scope.  As long as the operator kept the return bracketed, the pilot merely had to put the crosshairs on the target and fire.  This guidance was good out to 6000 yards.  Further, the radar was developed to be used against targets on the water (shipping) where there would be very little background clutter to obscure the return.  It was tested against ground targets and found to be much less effective, since getting good radar returns was difficult.  Since HTC can't model this accurately, we're given a point and click type weapon that doesn't perform historically with respect to employment.  The damage potential of a historical 75mm is almost moot in my opinion.  With a payload that includes the potential to take out up to 6 tanks in a single sortie (6X500lb bombs), who cares about the destructive potential of the cannon round?

As a caveat, you can destroy the structure of a hangar with simple MG bullets as a result of the damage system within the game. So to is it possible to kill tanks with a weapon that was not historically intended to do so.  Personally, I like the threat that the B-25 poses to GV's, especially when they attack an airfield.  IMO, the B-25H encourages a much more balanced use of combined arms by the GV'ers as having a flak along is now a necessity, if not actual fighter cover.  So, even though the individual vehicle is now much more exposed, game play is more balanced, as a single tank cannot now take out a field on its own.  

A perk assigned?  Perhaps.  Un-historical employment?  Yes.  A fundamental change to AH in the MA? No.  Un-ending fun blasting stuff with the pumpkin chucker?  Absolutely...

[bozon]

Good.
The more GV killers we have - the better.

[Nilsen]

Originally posted by bozon
Good.
The more GV killers we have - the better.

Any gv killer that does not need ORD bunkers is a good thing.

and hunting the gv killers is even more fun

[AWwrgwy]

All the one-hit kills of gv's I've made using the B-25H have been from well inside 1000 yds.  Probably inside of 500.  

I've also been killed quite often from a main gun hit.  Unhistorical?  Perhaps.

And, as for HE gv vs. gv, I've killed a Panzer with an M-8's 37mm firing HE.  But again, i was pretty close and firing from the rear.


wrngway

[Saxman]

Couple nights ago I made repeated attack runs against a Panzer. Even when I tagged him with the 75mm from directly behind him at UNDER 400yds I didn't even smoke his engine.

[SFraptor]

what i do is i fly low to the ground at high speeds ounce close to the target i cut the the engins at then about 300 away i open up and watch as i get a kill without the victum ever knowing i was thare then start up the engins and find another target:lol

[Warspawn]

I love hearing all this crying about using a weapon "in a manner that's not historical".


For Pete's sake, we finally get a weapon that keeps GV'rs from hitting .EF every time they hear a bomb falling, and that's a bad thing?  How accurate is it that there's an osty or M-16 parked on the tarmack that can bail and land kills when I dump 2000lb of ordinance on them?

Not very.

Thank goodness for the 75mm.  Yeah, it takes some cojones and skill to use, but when it lands it should bring on the hurt.  Especially against the relatively thin skin of any GV's top/rear armor.

[Warspawn]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wednesday, July 28, 1943 was a warm day off the island of New Britain in the Bismarck Sea. Three Japanese destroyers were steaming on course 280° over the flat, mirror like water at 20 knots. Suddenly a lookout called "aircraft, low off the port beam!". Another lookout identified the planes as American B-25 bombers, notorious for their "skip bombing" against destroyers. All guns were trained on the interlopers. Suddenly, while the aircraft were still more than a mile (1.6 km) away, a great geyser of water shot up close by the destroyers. The lookouts began frantically searching the sea; there had to be a ship close by with cannon aboard. But there was none! Suddenly, one of the destroyers was hit. It exploded in flames and sank in just a few minutes. Was it possible these aircraft had some new and diabolical weapon?

On the contrary; it was the very same old 75 mm M-4 field cannon used to rout the Germans in WW1! A few months before the incident, Colonel Paul Gunn of the US Fifth Air Force in Australia, had experimented with the installation of a 20 mm cannon in the nose of a B-25. Colonel Gunn, abetted by a North American Aviation Company Tech Rep named Jack Fox, sent the idea to North American in Inglewood, California where it was promptly taken a step further and worked into the installation of the 75 mm cannon.

...It required a crewman to load, fire and extract the casing. And when it fired it felt like the aircraft had "hit a brick wall", but with its 2.95 inch (75 mm) projectile, it could turn a tank into scrap metal and punch very large holes in Japanese destroyers and barges at a range of nearly 2 miles...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



http://www.aviation-history.com/north-american/b25.html
*edit: this article was about the 'G'; the H improved on the design...

[Yarbles]

Originally posted by Warspawn
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wednesday, July 28, 1943 was a warm day off the island of New Britain in the Bismarck Sea. Three Japanese destroyers were steaming on course 280° over the flat, mirror like water at 20 knots. Suddenly a lookout called "aircraft, low off the port beam!". Another lookout identified the planes as American B-25 bombers, notorious for their "skip bombing" against destroyers. All guns were trained on the interlopers. Suddenly, while the aircraft were still more than a mile (1.6 km) away, a great geyser of water shot up close by the destroyers. The lookouts began frantically searching the sea; there had to be a ship close by with cannon aboard. But there was none! Suddenly, one of the destroyers was hit. It exploded in flames and sank in just a few minutes. Was it possible these aircraft had some new and diabolical weapon?

On the contrary; it was the very same old 75 mm M-4 field cannon used to rout the Germans in WW1! A few months before the incident, Colonel Paul Gunn of the US Fifth Air Force in Australia, had experimented with the installation of a 20 mm cannon in the nose of a B-25. Colonel Gunn, abetted by a North American Aviation Company Tech Rep named Jack Fox, sent the idea to North American in Inglewood, California where it was promptly taken a step further and worked into the installation of the 75 mm cannon.

...It required a crewman to load, fire and extract the casing. And when it fired it felt like the aircraft had "hit a brick wall", but with its 2.95 inch (75 mm) projectile, it could turn a tank into scrap metal and punch very large holes in Japanese destroyers and barges at a range of nearly 2 miles...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



http://www.aviation-history.com/north-american/b25.html
*edit: this article was about the 'G'; the H improved on the design...

But strangely the basic 75mm in an M4 as opposed to the firefly version did not share this awesome reputation. If only they had thought to load the HE instead of the AP round Fritz would not have stood a chance whether in  a Panzer or maybe even a Tiger eh.

Japanese Tanks like Japanese planes were made out of rice paper strengthened with bamboo. (They always have lacked raw materials)

 How about we keep a firm grip on the facts here, Tankers were extremely unhappy with the 75mm with an AP round let alone an HE. the drive was to up gun allied tanks. So if this is to be a WW2 simulation remeber from the Air rockets and bombs were feared not some imaginary magical weapon that was less than ordinary when used on the ground:rolleyes:

And even more

I think I detect sometimes a longing in the collective American Psyche here to discover and exploit some Uber weapon. We had it with the M4 firefly (Which essentially derived its success form the gun but the armour was over modelled) now we have the B25 tank buster:O .

The only US uber weapon as I understand it in the game is the P51 Ultra long range escourt fighter.

The real US Uber weapons were however mass production and the Atom Bomb.

[straffo]

Originally posted by Yarbles
But strangely the basic 75mm in an M4 as opposed to the firefly version did not share this awesome reputation.

Was the M4 flying at 250 mph over the trees ?

[Yarbles]

Originally posted by straffo
Was the M4 flying at 250 mph over the trees ?

It may well do when the basic M4 comes to AH and Iam sure if it did there are some on here who will think it a good idea.

Do you reeeeeaaaaally think your 250mph would make that much difference to an HE shell. All smacks of a bit of wishfull thinking going on  

See above

[straffo]

Can a M4 fire from above ?

According to this chart http://gva.freeweb.hu/weapons/usa_guns5.html it can penetrate 76 or 66mm at 457 yard.

Top armour of a tank is not as thick as front or side armour,I won't be surprised if  it's below 50mm.