Author Topic: B25 Tank Killer! (Read 14683 times)

Yarbles · « **on:** August 31, 2007, 06:38:39 AM »

Not sure I understand why but the B25 apparently kills tanks with an HE round?

scottydawg · « **Reply #1 on:** August 31, 2007, 07:46:16 AM »

Not inconceivable, as armor thickness on certain tanks is different on certain parts of the tank, i.e. front is very thick, but thinner on the back. Also you can track a tank and if they .ef you get the kill. 75mm is nothing to thumb your nose at, even in a tank and even if it's HE and not AP.

Yarbles · « **Reply #2 on:** August 31, 2007, 07:49:13 AM »

Would you expect to be able to destroy another tank with a tank 75mm He shell? Assuming you hit it in the right place.

Tilt · « **Reply #3 on:** August 31, 2007, 07:52:43 AM »

Under certain circumstances an AH jeep can appear to kill a tank with a mg round.

But to take a direct correlation a Panzer Mk IV can appear to kill a tank with a 76mm HE round.

Given that HTC has a very good general deliniation between HE and AP rounds of the same calibre and muzzle velocity it is more probable that B25 pilits experience the sometimes wierd effects of the damage attribution model and earn kills when infact their weapon could never have polished off the victim on its own.

When a victim is "killed" the program looks up a damage file to see who did the most damage and awards the kill appropriately.............. or sometimes seemingly inappropriately

Agressors are who have died or landed are deleted from the list whilst they may have indeed contributed the most damage.
Agressors who have brought about the final "killing" blow may not be awarded the kill because another has already affected more damage "points". (if the killing blow had massive destructive power only that part required to inflict final component failure will be counted {as a straw so to speak})
Agressors who have brought about loss of victims flight due to a few precision shots at a critical component may not be awarded the kill because others have scored more damage points across other (wider) areas.

and when you start to combine the above wierd (but fortunately not to common) stuff can happen.

e.g Assuming a wing comes off at 10 units of damage

Player1 inflicts 7 units of wing damage via 20mm cannon fire then dies or lands.
Player2 inflicts 2 units of wing damage via .303 fire and runs out of ammo.
Player3 inflicts 5 units of wing damage via 30mm cannon fire and the wing falls off.

Player2 gets the kill. Only 1 of Player 3's damage points count

Unless of course Player3 then follows the victim down and puts another 3 units into another component before the victim actually dies or bails.

Having said all that if your sure that you came along and were the only player to fire HE at a tank and kill it then HTC (and ergo the rest of the playing comunity) would be greatly assisted by any film you can send them so they can find out what happened in greater detail than we have access to.

Yarbles · « **Reply #4 on:** August 31, 2007, 08:02:24 AM »

Which I understand to mean you should not regularly be able to kill tanks with a B25 on its own:aok

That would be my understanding as "Tank Killers" fired AP and if HE had the same effect why bother with AP at all.

Thanks for the detailed explanation, it makes things allot clearer and explains inevitable anomolies. I guess in my ideal world the kill should not go to anyone except the killer and if he/she is down no one. That aspect doesnt really relate to anything other than the game so whatever gives the greatiest happiness I guess.

Anyway Tilt I hope you,ve got a motorbike the roads around Banbury are some of the best in the south (Says I)

Krusty · « **Reply #5 on:** August 31, 2007, 08:33:24 AM »

From reports, the B25s are not "kill stealing" -- they are killing. I think the B-25H's gun is overmodeled quite a bit.

Yarbles · « **Reply #6 on:** August 31, 2007, 08:39:50 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Krusty
From reports, the B25s are not "kill stealing" -- they are killing. I think the B-25H's gun is overmodeled quite a bit.

My impression exactly, as in one shot = 1 kill is what I have been hearing. I personally think that is historically innacurate and upsets the balance between GV's and Aircraft.

scottydawg · « **Reply #7 on:** August 31, 2007, 08:45:36 AM »

You guys should go try to kill tanks in the 25 before having an opinion.

Yarbles · « **Reply #8 on:** August 31, 2007, 08:52:40 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by scottydawg
You guys should go try to kill tanks in the 25 before having an opinion.

Point taken but I dont really want to do that and I think as with any plane you have to become profficient before you achieve results which involves a certain investment in time.

I wasnt trying to voice a firm opinion I was initially trying to reconcile what I had heard with historical fact and it seems Krusty has heard the same thing.

Krusty · « **Reply #9 on:** August 31, 2007, 09:08:06 AM »

Folks like WideWing (and others) have already tested it for us. 1 or 2 hits and folks are killing tanks outright (not just disabling). I agree with Yarbles that this unbalances things and is not historically accurate.

Raptor · « **Reply #10 on:** August 31, 2007, 09:25:42 AM »

It took me 3 shots in a M4's rear before getting a kill. Even then another tank hit it with an AP round and I was awarded the kill.

Widewing · « **Reply #11 on:** August 31, 2007, 09:54:39 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Krusty
Folks like WideWing (and others) have already tested it for us. 1 or 2 hits and folks are killing tanks outright (not just disabling). I agree with Yarbles that this unbalances things and is not historically accurate.

Well, the context of the B-25H's usage in the game is often not historic. Then again, Spitfires fighting P-51s and Corsairs isn't historic either. The basis for historical accuracy are the aircraft and vehicles, not the battles they fight. In the game, people will employ assets as they need them.

Had the B-25H had been deployed to the 9th AF, they would have been attacking armor with them. The T13E1/M6 75mm HE round had enough kinetic energy to punch thru thin armor, up to 50mm under certain circumstances at 100 yards as established at Aberdeen Proving Grounds in 1943. At 500 yards it could still penetrate 25mm at 90 degrees. That's just penetration, and does not include the secondary effect of the explosive charge (test rounds at Aberdeen were inert).

Thus, it should not be considered unusual for a B-25H to knock out armor with a well placed or just lucky hit.

My regards,

Widewing

Lusche · « **Reply #12 on:** August 31, 2007, 10:10:39 AM »

One thing to consider is that B-25s, like any other plane in this game, is also often with non historical tactics because there is no risk of dying involved for the player.

When I am killing tanks in HurriD / B-25, I go in at angles and distances which border on suicidal. And sometimes I cross that border.

Real life HurriD pilots attacked their prey in very low level runs from behind. Very dangerous, but certainly not as dangerous as my 60° dives on Tiger tanks with pulling up at the very last possible moment. I can live with augering at one of every ten sorties. A real life pilot could not...

Saxman · « **Reply #13 on:** August 31, 2007, 10:19:04 AM »

Exactly. All of the one-ping tank kills I hear about online from B-25s are at under 400yds to the rear or turret. I've yet to hear of one-ping clean kills from distances of 1000yds or greater vs armor (against M-16s, however.... mwahahahahaaaa!) The most I've done is smoked the engine on a Tiger, and possibly tracked a Panzer (was awarded kills for both) and that was at right around 1000yds out.

evenhaim · « **Reply #14 on:** August 31, 2007, 12:02:58 PM »

i recently landed 17 kills in a b25h every single one was a perfect kill on a panzer or Hitthe same sweet spot almost every time, from behind the panzer and just under the turret one shot kills, its not kill stealing almost all the tanks were untouched and newly spawned.