English for beginners...

[2bighorn]

Originally posted by Vudak
So it's one of those things that probably wouldn't be a problem being used in real life with the proper voice inflection making it clear that you're not using it in a derogatory way?  Which of course text can't get across?

Not quite. Because of past usage (context) it is offensive word no matter in what context it is used today. It may take few generations more before it is acceptable again.

To understand that better you'd have to go back to 19th century when Asian people (mainly Chinese and Japanese) were brought in US as cheap labor to build railroads and work on the farms.
In the West white americans were blaming them for their economic misery and anti-asian movements started (using inferior race card) and from then on the things got worse.
War started in Europe, due to German-Japanese alignment, curfew was imposed on all Japanese-Americans, they were banned from universities (so they couldn't learn German and spy for them) and after Pearl Harbor they ended in internment camps.

The quote by famous war correspondent Ernie Pyle describes American sentiment very accurately:
"In Europe, we felt that our enemies, horrible and deadly as they were, were still people, but out here, I soon gathered that the Japanese were looked upon as something subhuman and repulsive; the way some people feel about cockroaches and mice."

And the abbreviated term was used through the period by us to project that sentiment.

PS
Above text should be seen in historical context only.

[evenhaim]

I only once haver ever offended someone by saying an abbreviation of japanese.  The rest of the time i hope im not:rolleyes:

[Kermit de frog]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Regardless if you're Japanese or not, how you use the term or what "inflection" you use when saying it, it's offensive to them.  Why is that so hard to understand?


ack-ack

Exactly my point.

It's how you use it.  "Dumb Jap" is one thing, but to just casually say "Jap" in a friendly way online is okay by me.

[Scca]

Originally posted by 2bighorn
Not quite. Because of past usage (context) it is offensive word no matter in what context it is used today. It may take few generations more before it is acceptable again.

To understand that better you'd have to go back to 19th century when Asian people (mainly Chinese and Japanese) were brought in US as cheap labor to build railroads and work on the farms.
In the West white americans were blaming them for their economic misery and anti-asian movements started (using inferior race card) and from then on the things got worse.
War started in Europe, due to German-Japanese alignment, curfew was imposed on all Japanese-Americans, they were banned from universities (so they couldn't learn German and spy for them) and after Pearl Harbor they ended in internment camps.

The quote by famous war correspondent Ernie Pyle describes American sentiment very accurately:
"In Europe, we felt that our enemies, horrible and deadly as they were, were still people, but out here, I soon gathered that the Japanese were looked upon as something subhuman and repulsive; the way some people feel about cockroaches and mice."

And the abbreviated term was used through the period by us to project that sentiment.

PS
Above text should be seen in historical context only.

Good history lesson..  Hope it's remembered so the same mistakes aren't made in the future.

BTW, nice signiture 2bighorn.  Took me a little bit to get it.  (One possible answer: Use less elevator)

[Gryffin]

Originally posted by Kermit de frog
Exactly my point.

It's how you use it.  "Dumb Jap" is one thing, but to just casually say "Jap" in a friendly way online is okay by me.

I don't think that was his point. It seemed to me that he was saying that it is offensive to japanese people no matter the inflection.

[Trip01]

Originally posted by toonces3
Does that make the term 'Brit' offensive as well?

I don't think there is any context in which 'Brit' is offensive (speaking as a Brit). Even 'Limey' is nearly always used in the context of friendly banter. But the connotations associated with a word differ between cultures, even ones with the same language.

For example I understand that in the US the term 'Paki' is no more offensive than the term 'Brit'. But in England, the term has very negative connotations, almost equivalent to 'the N word'.

But I wouldn't expect you yanks to understand that  

Trip

[Patches1]

2bighorn nailed it!

Thanks, 2bighorn for an intelligent and informative post.

[toonces3]

My point was that Brit is a shortened version of British in the same way that Jap is a shortened version of Japanese.  

The history lesson of the use of the word Jap is interesting.  However, I have to say that if the worst we (the U.S.) could come up with for a slang word to degrade our enemy was to abbreviate their 3 syllable name into a single syllable (that may have been a lot easier to say over a tactical radio during combat, where brevity is the rule), then, well, we needed to try harder.  That's a weak insult name.

So, having said all that, I wouldn't say a Japanese person is a Jap, but I have no problem referring to a Japanese plane as a Jap plane.  As in "I've got a Jap plane low 3 o'clock", or "Enaging the high Jap."

If seeing the word Jap is the most offensive thing you see on ch 200, consider yourself lucky.  

While we're on the subject:

To not win is to 'lose'.
If something is not tight, it is 'loose'.

If you fail to win, you are the 'loser'.
If you untighten something, you make it 'looser'.

Just needed to get that off my chest.

[Timppa]

The Japanese (and Korean) players have always been the most "Class act" in this game. Never have I heard any *****ing or moaning, in ch 200 or in this BBS.

[Vudak]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Why is that so hard to understand?

To be perfectly blunt, because I'd suppose many of us are white, and as such there really isn't a word out there that "gets to us" as a whole.  It's my opinion that this isn't for other's lack of trying, but more so for our own lack of caring.

I'm not trying to be rude or anything, I'm just trying to show the other side.  I've been called every name in the book for "white slur" and have never thought twice about any of them.  From what I gather, this is a pretty common reaction.  So, I have a *very* difficult time understanding why anyone else would let a word get to them, and as such I'm probably more prone to accidentally offend people than others, simply because I've never seen the big deal about terms or such.

It's one of those cases where one guy says, "How can you not possibly see this as offensive?" and then the next guy says, "How could you possibly see this as offensive?" and then they end up inadvertently offended each other by arguing about it.

So maybe we should just drop it, or bring it to the O'Club

[ozrocker]

I can't see "Jap" being offensive. In WW2 the term "Nip" was more of a derogatory term than Jap, or so I thought.

                                                                        Oz

[toonces3]

I re-thought this on my way to class just now.

I was stationed in Japan for a time, and I can't recall a single time in my life I ever referred to a Japanese person as a Jap.  We would say, "Are the Japanese flying?"

I was stationed in Keflavik, and we invited British aircrew to exercises all the time, and it was routine to say, "Are the Brits playing?"  

However, I never realized the distinction as in my games of War in the Pacific and in AH2, I wouldn't think twice about referring to a Japanese plane as a Jap plane, or a Japanese ship, or island, or whatever.

I think, maybe, something seemed derogatory about calling a person a Jap, without actually realizing I felt that way.  I suppose subconsciously it seemed wrong.

Interesting thread.  I guess I didn't realize I agreed with some of you after all.


Remember-
lose=not win
loose=not tight

[toonces3]

Yet 'Nip' is short for 'Nipponese'.  I believe Japan is Nippon in Japanese.

Oh well, I'm out.  Interesting discussion.

[2bighorn]

Originally posted by Vudak
I've been called every name in the book for "white slur" and have never thought twice about any of them.

Probably because you have never experienced hardship or injustice associated with those slur words.

After the Dust Bowl disaster in '30s, some half a million of homeless Americans from Great Plains came to California. Mainly farmers who lost everything, most of them settled in Central Valley and were referred to as "Okies". As such (here at least), Okie is considered slur word because many still remember or were told by parents about those events and they won't take that word lightly.

So I'd say, all comes from lack of knowing history, ignorance, rather than anything else.

To everybody who argues about slur words, how they aren't/shouldn't be offensive, take some history lessons.

[Vudak]

Originally posted by 2bighorn

To everybody who argues about slur words, how they aren't/shouldn't be offensive, take some history lessons.

If every single black person in the world was offended by the n word, your argument would have some standing...

...But, not every single black person is.

So really it comes down to a matter of personal fortitude, as much as people don't want to hear it.