Author Topic: F6F-5 Questions about airspeed  (Read 1277 times)

Offline Mojava

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 351
F6F-5 Questions about airspeed
« on: September 14, 2007, 10:07:23 AM »
I believe the F6F-5, P47d, and F4u-1 all shared the same engine.  I know the F4u utilized ram air to increase its airspeed, but shouldn't the F6F-5 be a little faster than what it currently is?  Are we flying the F6F-3?  I have posted Corky Meyers F4u and F6F comparison below, very interesting and long read.

                    Navy taste test...: Hellcat vs. Corsair
                                      Meyer, Corky
 
    If the contest between the two airplanes had been for beauty of design, we would have given in immediately. Our baby, the Hellcat, was beautiful to us, but in comparison with the graceful lines of the Corsair, the Hellcat looked more like the box it came in than a new Navy fighter. We always used the euphemism "functional looking" instead of "ugly" to describe it

We were sure that Vought would have a difficult time meeting the Navy's demands, as most of the Corsair's deficiencies would require major changes in configuration. We were also steeped in the tradition that Grummanites could always make better Navy fighters than Connecticut clam diggers; thus, our tasks would be accomplished in a trice. Our performance-improvement challenge turned out to be much easier than we ever hoped, but the aileron problem turned out to be nearly impossible.

The Navy was right

As long as we had the enemy in our hangar, we decided to conduct a witch-hunt into its entrails. In my first flight, I discovered the Corsair did indeed indicate 20 knots faster and did have really smooth and powerful ailerons compared with our Hellcats. But, as we had heard and as was completely obvious, the cockpit was wretched from many standpoints. The most glaring deficiency was the absence of a cockpit floor! Behind the rudder pedals, only two, small heel panels offered any protection against dropping a pencil, a chart, or earphones, etc., into a three-foot-deep, yawning black hole. Consider the havoc this would cause if the pilot's relief tube dropped down there on a very, very long mission!

To simplify the evaluation and reduce data, we decided to test-fly the Hellcat and the Corsair in close formation. Instead of comparing complex calculations, performance could then be compared directly at the critical altitudes of the main stage, high and low blower altitudes of the engine's superchargers, and from cruise to high-speed, level flight with water injection. We also included some formation dives to learn which airplane was the slickest

Performance almost equal

Except for the Corsair being 20 knots faster than the Hellcat in the main, sea-level, supercharger stage, both fighters had almost exactly the same speed at the low and high blower stages from 5,000 feet altitude up to service ceiling! In essence, they had the same performance. Our formation flights showed that both airplanes (with similar power settings) were in closely stabilized formation at all altitudes tested above 5,000 feet Sometimes, the Corsair would slowly gain a lead of 100 to 200 feet after five minutes of stabilized power flight, and sometimes, the Hellcat would do the same. Considering that both airplanes had the same engine, propeller, gross weight, wingspan, etc., they should have had about the same performance. We did notice that during these runs, the Corsair always had about a 20-knot indicated airspeed (IAS) advantage! We didn't realize just how embarrassing it would be to solve that dilemma.

The reason the Corsair was faster in the main stage blower was that its engine and carburetor were provided with ram air coming in directly from the forward-facing wing duct, whereas the Hellcat had the carburetor air coming in from the accessory compartment of the fuselage just behind the engine, with no ram air effect Our airplane was getting carburetor air at the same pressure as it would have were it motionless on the ground, and the Corsair was getting carburetor air supercharged by the speed of the airplane giving it more power (speed) in the main stage blower. In both aircraft, however, the designs were similar in that they provided ram air to the low and high blower stages. Our engineering department defended its position because taking the warmer air for the main stage blower would prevent inadvertent carburetor icing engine failures. Many Wildcats that had ram air in the main stage like the Corsair were lost because pilots failed to take precautions in time to avert this type of disaster. The Hellcat design was reviewed and approved by the Navy. I had had a carburetor icing accident during final approach on my first flight in a Wildcat a few months previously; it resulted in my first deadstick landing and a vertical ground loop. I therefore heartily agreed with the Navy's decision.

IAS performance equalized-the hard way

After noting the 20 knots indicated airspeed difference that had caused all the "lower performance" ruckus for our Hellcat, we eagerly decided to change the airspeed system so that it would read evenly with the Corsair when they were in formation. We had taken a lot of flak from all who had flown both airplanes (but not in formation) and, therefore, everybody 'mew' that the Hellcat was inferior in high-speed performance. We liked our simple and less complicated airspeed system with the static and dynamic orifices on the same boom, but we decided to go whole hog and put the static orifice on the fuselage (like the Corsair) to tailor the system to read 20 knots higher. We tried several orifice locations to get the required reading. After I had done a thorough testing of the final system over the entire flight envelope-or so I thought-I proudly flew the airplane to the Naval Air Test Center at Patuxent, Maryland for an evaluation. We soon found out that we had not purloined the Corsair airspeed system design thoroughly enough.

We soon received the Navy's glowing report of the new system; and it went on to say that the Air Test Center had never tested an airplane with such remarkable low-speed performance in its entire history. They found that in a left side slip with the wheels and flaps extended, the Hellcat could fly at zero airspeed. Wonder of wonders! Grumman led the industry again! Upon re-evaluation, we found that the engineers, inexperienced with flush static airspeed systems, had designed ours with only one orifice on the left side of the airplane, and it was very unbalanced with the flaps down. As the senior engineering test pilot, I was in deep doo-doo for not testing the new system in all side-slip conditions. A dualorifice system way behind the lowered flaps (similar to the Corsair's) finally provided a satisfactory means to give the Hellcat a cockpit indicated airspeed reading comparable to the vaunted Corsair's. That was the last we heard of the Hellcat's performance gap with the Corsair. Performance case closed.


Epilogue


Forward visibility for the Corsair was never as good as the Hellcat's because of the design of its wing center section. In a fighter, fuel is usually required to be on its center of gravity to keep the flight characteristics within satisfactory limits. The Corsair was originally designed to have the fuel in the wing center section, and the first few prototypes did have it there. But the inverted-gull-wing design was so complicated to manufacture that those tanks had to be removed and a fuel tank had to be placed on top of the wing in a fuselage extension-where the cockpit had been. Placing the cockpit four feet farther aft gave the Corsair its very impaired forward visibility, especially in the landing configuration. This poor forward visibility also greatly reduced pilot lead estimation capabilities in deflection gunnery runs. The long nose was as endemic to poor visibility in the Corsair as the design of the wing dihedral was to the low rolling performance in the Hellcat

The Hellcat, with its straight wing center section, could be designed with all of the fuel on the CG. Thus, the cockpit could be positioned just behind the engine to provide excellent forward visibility for aerial gunnery, carrier approach and even after flare-out on landing. It was also attached to so much structure around the center of gravity that it gave the pilot excellent crash protection. Hellcat pilots gave Grumman its nickname "the Grumman Ironworks."

The lack of satisfactory forward visibility caused many carrierlanding accidents in the early Corsair series until the F4U-4 came into squadrons late in the War. Because of high accident rates, Corsairs were pulled from carrier operations three times during the War. In land-based operations where higher-speed wheel landings could be used to improve forward visibility, the Corsair had a very good safety record.


This writer just might have been a little less biased if the Chance Vought Corp. was sending him a monthly retirement check of the same size as Grumman has been doing for the last 17 years. If, however, the late Boone Guyton, who was the project test pilot for all models of the Corsair (and was an old friend) was buying the beer, I would agree heartily with him that the "bent-wing bastard" was the "greatest fighter in aviation history!"

Copyright Air Age Publishing Dec 1998

Offline C(Sea)Bass

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1644
F6F-5 Questions about airspeed
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2007, 11:45:28 AM »
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f6f/f6f.html

we have the F6F-5, which according to the chart at the bttom of that web page could do about 391-393mph at 23000 feet.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f4u/f4u.html

the -1 is shown at over 430mph at 23000 feet. so the best F4U is 40mph better than our wildcat. HTC has the speeds correct.

Offline Mojava

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 351
F6F-5 Questions about airspeed
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2007, 12:06:54 PM »
So having the same motor , props  would cause the speed to fluctuate that much?  From Corkys report, the performance was  very similar.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 12:15:56 PM by Mojava »

Offline C(Sea)Bass

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1644
F6F-5 Questions about airspeed
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2007, 12:15:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mojava
Does it list the speed of the F6F on the deck?


the graphs show each planes speed from 0 feet to their service ceilings.

Offline Mojava

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 351
F6F-5 Questions about airspeed
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2007, 12:16:24 PM »
Saw that underneath, sorry  should have read the whole thing.

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8801
F6F-5 Questions about airspeed
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2007, 02:32:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by C(Sea)Bass
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f6f/f6f.html

we have the F6F-5, which according to the chart at the bttom of that web page could do about 391-393mph at 23000 feet.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f4u/f4u.html

the -1 is shown at over 430mph at 23000 feet. so the best F4U is 40mph better than our wildcat. HTC has the speeds correct.


You missed the part where the speed test was done at MIL Power (52.5" Hg MAP), not WEP (59" with water injection).

And no, HTC DOES NOT have the speed correct.

If you read this test, you will see that the F6F-5 attained 391 mph in MIL power (not using WEP).

Then go ahead and read this test, which confirms this (again, only tested at MIL power).

Finally, read this test, which shows the F6F-5 attaining 409 mph in WEP at its critical altitude. Note also that the F4U-1D managed 413 mph at its lower critical altitude. At 21,600 feet, these two were at a virtual dead heat in speed.

I have over-layed the TIAC test data onto Neil Sterling's speed chart, as well as Grumman data for F6F-5 BuNo 67231. The latter data is both uncorrected and corrected for pitot tube error. I won't post it without Neil's permission.

Our F6F-5 can do no better than 386 mph at critical altitude. It's broken (like the B-26 was) and needs to be fixed.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline C(Sea)Bass

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1644
F6F-5 Questions about airspeed
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2007, 02:54:27 PM »
As usual I can see that you are correct. Good work sir.

Offline F4UDOA

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1731
      • http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/index.html
F6F-5 Questions about airspeed
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2007, 04:11:16 PM »
C(Sea)Bass,

This topic is one that has been argued on these boards many times but if you look closely at the reports you will see some things that make you scratch your head.

1. The Corkey Meyer report is from 1943 and test performed on the F6F-3 and F4U-1. I am not clear is WEP was used but keep the year in mind becuase this is the ackowledged date of the discovery of the Indicated airspeed problem. FYI, in mid 1943 the AAF did test on both the F4U-1 and F6F-3 and found the top speeds at alt to be nearly the same (380MPH- 388MPH) however not the same. The AAF remembered to calibrate the airspeed apparently.

2. I have three different CAS IAS charts for the F6F-5 from two years of production and another for the F6F-3. I seriously doubt most pilots that ever flew that airplane ever new how fast it was actually going. One thing is for certain is that depending on where the pitot static tube was located you could be indicating 17KNOTS too slow or too fast.

3. The test that show the F6F-5 with a range of top speeds based on configuration from 375MPH to 400MPH with WEP. The F4U-1D has a range of 400MPH to 420MPH. The F4U-1A is even highter. The TAIC test which show the F6F-5 as a 400MPH+ fighter also show the aircraft climbing very slowly compared to the F4U-1D. There is no mention of the condition of the aircraft other than the listed weight.

4. If you really want to know which aircraft was faster at the same power settings just look at the range charts in the pilots manuals. At all power settings the F4U-1D in the same loading condition maintains a speed advantage of approx 20MPH. I will be more than happy to post these charts.

5. Corkey Meyer states in his artical that both aircraft had approximately the same drag condition. This is not true, the F4U had 314sqft of wing and the F6F had 334sqft, the F6F had a larger frontal area and tail section. The F4U had gull wings and it's canopy was both lower and futher to the rear of the cockpit. They were not similar at all.

The bottom line with these two aircraft is that the F6F-5 could reach 400MPH in the correct flight condition (Clean)  however in similar flight condtions it would be about 15-20MPH slower at all alts. BTW, not all test show the F6F-5 even in the clean condition reaching 400MPH.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 04:19:53 PM by F4UDOA »

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8801
F6F-5 Questions about airspeed
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2007, 05:10:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by F4UDOA

I have three different CAS IAS charts for the F6F-5 from two years of production and another for the F6F-3. I seriously doubt most pilots that ever flew that airplane ever new how fast it was actually going. One thing is for certain is that depending on where the pitot static tube was located you could be indicating 17KNOTS too slow or too fast.


Everything stated in this post is correct. Speed numbers varied from test to test. Unfortunately, we'll never know precisely why. We do agree that a clean F6F-5 could at least make 400 mph, probably a bit more.

Corky is quoted to write that the "pitot tube error was 9 to 12 knots too fast at sea level and about 12 to 15 knots too slow at critical altitude" I have a speed curve from a Grumman document that Dean uses in his book. I adjusted both ends of the curve and plotted the "corrected" curve and the original curve to Neil Sterling's chart. I added what I estimate to be the TIAC curve as well. If Neil doesn't mind, I'm posting it below.



You will note that the speed at sea level is more in line with reality (perhaps a tad fast) and the max speed at critical altitude is now around 402 mph, again what I expected.

In the TIAC test, the F4U seems awfully slow at sea level... They don't state if the supercharger was in neutral or low blower, because that would account for the lower than expected speed. If it was in low blower, there's no ram air effect.

What can be deduced is that the AH2 F6F-5 is simply too slow at altitude. It can attain 386 mph using WEP, whereas the real F6F-5 can attain 391 mph with just MIL power. Adding WEP should result in 400 to 405 mph.

So, I hope HTC fixes this and gives us the F6F-3 as well...

My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 05:21:21 PM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline F4UDOA

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1731
      • http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/index.html
F6F-5 Questions about airspeed
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2007, 01:59:27 PM »
Widewing,

I think you low alt speeds are too high, the CAS chart I have for the F6F-3 shows 12knots to slow at 100 knots IAS and 15 knots to slow at 220knots IAS. The F6F-5 chart shows 5knts to fast at 100knts IAS and 17Knts to fast at 240knts IAS.

So the correction is in the other direction on the F6F-5 which indicates to fast not too slow. However all of Mike Williams and Neil Sterlings charts are already corrected for CAS so the original speeds are the correct ones.

The best indication of the F6F-5 performance is the Vought performance charts where the F6F-5 reaches 400MPH. This speed however can only be attained in the clean condition. When pylons are added the approximate top speed is reduced to the 380MPH range which is what we see in our F6F-5. The same lies true for the F4U-1D which can only be configured with pylons regardless of loadout hence the reduced top speed.

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23048
F6F-5 Questions about airspeed
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2007, 02:04:39 PM »
Saw some Royal Navy stuff recently that put the tested version of the F6F at 409mph tops and the counter tested A6M5 at 335mph at tops, IIRC.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8801
F6F-5 Questions about airspeed
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2007, 02:20:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by F4UDOA
However all of Mike Williams and Neil Sterlings charts are already corrected for CAS so the original speeds are the correct ones.


True, but the F6F-5 data is still at MIL power.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline F4UDOA

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1731
      • http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/index.html
F6F-5 Questions about airspeed
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2007, 12:56:05 PM »
Quote
True, but the F6F-5 data is still at MIL power.


Indeed it is.

However all in all the F6F-5 is pretty well modeled in AH2. The speed is not far off of the best performance speeds listed although I am not exactly sure where AH2 max speed is (I am sure you have that test data) although I think it is mid 380's. I have seen test as low as the 370's with WEP and as high as 409MPH on the F6F-5 so speed is mid range. The Climb is on the high side of the available data I have seen especially at that weight. The flaps are deployable in multi-positions which is not historically accurate for the F6F so all in all it is a fair representation I would say but not the peak of performance but the same can be said of the P-51, P-38, P-47 and F4U in AH.

The one beef I might have is the low speed stall characteristics although I have not seen it myself. I have seen it noted in these boards a number of times that the F6F has an assymentrical stall.

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8801
F6F-5 Questions about airspeed
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2007, 06:16:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by F4UDOA
Indeed it is.

However all in all the F6F-5 is pretty well modeled in AH2. The speed is not far off of the best performance speeds listed although I am not exactly sure where AH2 max speed is (I am sure you have that test data) although I think it is mid 380's. I have seen test as low as the 370's with WEP and as high as 409MPH on the F6F-5 so speed is mid range. The Climb is on the high side of the available data I have seen especially at that weight. The flaps are deployable in multi-positions which is not historically accurate for the F6F so all in all it is a fair representation I would say but not the peak of performance but the same can be said of the P-51, P-38, P-47 and F4U in AH.

The one beef I might have is the low speed stall characteristics although I have not seen it myself. I have seen it noted in these boards a number of times that the F6F has an assymentrical stall.


Well, I've tested every fighter in the game at specific altitudes, and especially at their critical altitudes. Generally, speeds are accurate within +/- 3 mph to existing test data. There are some exceptions, but the F6F-5 misses the mark by the largest margin. It's 6 mph slower in WEP than two Navy tests show for MIL power, and a whopping 25 mph slower than the TAIC data. At the very least, it's 14 mph too slow as currently modeled (clean, no racks or rocket stubs). We agree that a clean F6F-5 should pull at least 400 mph at critical altitude.

I'd like to see this corrected, but it's not my primary gripe. That revolves around what you mentioned. NACA tests as well as flight tests describe the F6F's stall as extremely gentle and perfectly suited for low-speed flying around the boat. Our F6F-5 suffers from a severe roll instability at high angles of attack, where it snaps inverted in an instant. When tested side-by-side with an F4U-1D, the F6F has a vastly more violent stall. Kinda backwards from the general consensus of those who have flown both in the RW. If you remember the old F6F dating back to 2001-2002, it suffered from horrendous departure behavior. It was later adjusted, but it's still far from where it should be.

I'm hoping that this gets fixed, and that the performance curve above 12k gets adjusted. Finally, I'd like to see the F6F-3 find its way into the plane set as it was the primary Navy fighter for nearly a year. The performance curve for the F6F-3 would closely match that of the current F6F-5. The only question is, would the F6F-3 be an early model (R-2800-10) or a late model (R-2800-10W)? The difference being 250 additional hp. I'd be happy with either.

Of course, I think the graphics would get an update too. The current graphic rendition is very old and rather ugly compared to the Corsairs.

My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 06:25:13 PM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline redman555

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2193
F6F-5 Questions about airspeed
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2007, 11:50:40 PM »
anything can change speed not just engine, its like stickin 1 engine on  B-17. and puttin the same engine on a zero...wats gonna go faster
~364th C-HAWKS FG~

Ingame: BigBOBCH