How Threatening is Terrorisim to America?

[LEADPIG]

Those are my opinions, i respect your opinions, do i feel i am right or wrong, not necessarily, those are just my thoughts, i could be right, i could be wrong, but i am open to changing them.

Another thing you seem to think just because i think the way i do i am a textbook liberal. Liberals suck, as well as conservatives. You strike me as a textbook conservative, you say the same thing as all the others i've ever heard, do i think you don't have a mind of your own because you sound like them? No, i just think that that's what you think and leave it at that, no harm done.

On terriorsim...the way were fighting it.....you might as well be fighting a ghost in a wet paper bag, while blindfolded. It will do you just as much good, hence to me the expended effort is misdirected and is a waste. The soldiers energies and lives are being wasted by people in power who don't understand this. I feel they are not taking responsibility for their poor planning and understanding and are throwing it on the backs of the soldiers, who are dieing with it, while they try to save face. Leaders of this country should not do that to it's protectors. That is not the American way to me, and it hurts me to see. America should be open enough to change it's mistakes, not stuborn enough not to see them. That is the first sign of the end for any group, including a country.

[john9001]

Originally posted by LEADPIG

On terriorsim...the way were fighting it.....you might as well be fighting a ghost in a wet paper bag, while blindfolded.

US and Iraq troops found a bomb making and arms/ammo facility, they called in a air strike and destroyed it. Big secondary explosion. Did you miss it on the news? I guess the "ghost in the wet paper bag" is having a headache  right now.

[LEADPIG]

Sure that's a regular occurence, John. How often do you think they have a target identifiable enough to call in an air strike? You think that one is going to make a difference? They need to be able to do that allot more often to win it that way.

Let's see them call in an airstrike in on Muhhammed wearing jeans and a t-shirt crouched around a building with a RPG aiming it a group of unsuspecting soldiers. Or Ahkbar and Quasay kneeling in the dark to set up a road bomb that the troops will drive over two days later. Real cost effective way to wage war, keep doing it that way if you want, and we won't have an arm and a leg left to defend ourselves after they've blown it off.

Might as well hold a line of firecrackers in your mouth to remove a cavity and hope for a good outcome.

[john9001]

Originally posted by LEADPIG
Let's see them call in an airstrike in on Muhhammed wearing jeans and a t-shirt crouched around a building with a RPG aiming it a group of unsuspecting soldiers.

suprize suprize, they can do that.

[FrodeMk3]

Originally posted by john9001
suprize suprize, they can do that.

Not nearly enough, though, Technology alone can't win a war.

[bj229r]

Originally posted by JB88
so.  let's stop doing it.

let's appreciate opposing views, let encourage them.  let's promise ourselves to try to learn something new from time to time.  

lets drop party lines and get back to the basics.

please.

lets rebuild our country.  

lord knows we have it in us.



it wouldnt be the first time.

Unfortunately, that is contingent on one side surrendering its views to the will of the other...when it's called 'openmindedness' it means the conservatives caved, when conservatives dig in their heels, it's called 'gridlock'. There is rarely room for compromise...as the two approaches in these matters are so different. Such is life

[john9001]

Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Not nearly enough, though, Technology alone can't win a war.

maybe you should ask the survivors of saddams elite battle hardened republican guard.

[Soviet]

You will never destroy terrorism by using the military.  You can destroy every "terrorist nation" on earth.  You can occupy all of their lands and actively seek out terrorists, but there will always be more terrorists to take their place.  No matter what you do, no matter how rigorously you control the population and spy on it terrorism will always flourish.  There is only one way to deal with terrorism and that's not to give the terrorists any reason to hate us.  

They hate us for what we are doing around the world, they hate us for our involvement in their nations and their politics.  All of that is none of our business.  We have no reason to have troops in the middle east, none what so ever.  Why do we still have troops in Europe, we have no business being in their country.  How would you feel if we started to allow Germany and England to establish military bases in our nation?  I for one would be pretty pissed.  Our nation was never intended to be involved militarily with so many nations.  When one of those nations is dragged to war we're always dragged into war with it.  How can any of you red blooded Americans deny what our Great President Thomas Jefferson meant when he stated "peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none."  The only reason anyone gives for staying in other nations is for "our safety" but by getting involved in military alliances and policing the world all we do is grow more opposition.

Look back on history, and you will see what I am saying is fact and not my own opinion.  We are responsible for our actions as a nation.  Please do not empower those with an agenda against us by giving them a reason to hate us.  Every war we fight over seas, every government we overthrow, every atrocity we commit is ammunition terrorists recruiters use to attract people to their cause, can't you see it?  There was no Al-Qaeda and few, if any, terrorists in Iraq before we invaded.  Thousands upon thousands of people have joined Al-Qaeda and engaged in terrorism after we invaded.

Just some food for thought.  i am do not have some kind of agenda against the United States.  I love this country and value the existence of our great Republic.  However its survival is at stake, because we are not pursuing the correct course of action in world affairs.  Dont believe me?  Fine, don't take my word for it, take General Wesley clark's word for it in This Video.  I hope he's wrong but those are certainly some troubling words.  People just open your mind and consider the possibility that our nation may not be on the right track, at least consider the possibility, you don't have to embrace it.

[AKKaz]

Originally posted by Soviet
You will never destroy terrorism by using the military.  You can destroy every "terrorist nation" on earth.  You can occupy all of their lands and actively seek out terrorists, but there will always be more terrorists to take their place.  No matter what you do, no matter how rigorously you control the population and spy on it terrorism will always flourish.  There is only one way to deal with terrorism and that's not to give the terrorists any reason to hate us.

Terrorists will always be there, you will never get rid of all of them no matter how/what you do. Same as bias and prejudices will never be a thing of the past.

The best you can do is confront what you can when it appears and watch for the rest.  People always find away to hate others, whether race, greed, religion, social standing, etc. it will be there.  Appeasement usually only gets the person appeasing the happy thought that the appeased is now satisfied.  The only problem with that is it only works when you give them what they want everytime they want it, doesn't matter if its fair and reasonable to you. Is there truely a "hearts and Minds" formula? Only if your deal to that individual is constantly better than the others.

I agree, a middle ground needs to be found between the 2 extremes.  But almost impossible given human nature is that each side wants 51% of the pie. And the side that didn't get 51% will beleive that instead of getting the other 49%, they only got 10%.

[LEADPIG]

Originally posted by john9001
maybe you should ask the survivors of saddams elite battle hardened republican guard.

John, the Republican Guard was a mass identifiable army, not two or three guys with AK-47's and slingshots. Don't you get that by now?

[x0847Marine]

Originally posted by LEADPIG
X-Marine you are thinking way above the grain of what most Americans can tolerate or comprehend, kudos to you for that. Don't bother about being persecuted or misunderstood for it, most folks will come around much longer after you have and are just plain dense.

  If more people understood the reason for the hatred, we'd have better more acurate solutions on how to fix it.

I just happened to go to be enrolled in the 90210 school system in the late 70s / early 80s, the Shah was on the way out and the city was flooded with uber rich Iranians. Predictably the Jewish kids sat at the opposite end of the cafeteria, both sides traded verbal insults / arguments to the amusement of folks like me, in the middle, who didn't care.

I wrote off their crazy stories of a "US overthrow" of their .gov, as low budget mellow-drama conspiracy BS. My country, the land of the free, wouldn't support a despotic crapbag like the Shah, US officials on TV always praised the dude as some type of mid-east warrior for peace & justice.

Then I looked into their crazy stories, there had been no mention of anything like they described on the news, or in my so called "history" classes...  and found some info on operation Ajax, and suddenly understood quite clearly why these Persian kids were kinda pissed, where their angry rhetoric came from.

The average Iranian / mid east dude gets up in the AM and has the same concerns / motivations we do, they don't sit around hating on strangers 1/2 a world away because we have for porn, "free speech" & elections, I'll even bet a great number are exactly like my soon to be x-wifes family; they'd love to live the USA despite the lethal blunders of our so called leaders, and once here they'd become proud Americans.

This bumper sticker verbal vomit about "they" hating our freedoms should be too stupid for any critical thinker to even consider, it flies in the face of reality. Every time "they", the haters, are asked what their problem is, they tell us: its your .govs idiotic foreign policies.

But predictably there isn't enough spine or testicle in DC to man the f-up and admit what their parties are responsible for, neo-clowns like Giuliani would rather shout down informed folks like Dr. Ron Paul, then follow up with some sappy speech that plays on patriotic emotion that will surely end any reasonable debate. Giuliani shows us why 5 years act like 5 year olds and throw tantrums, because it works, everyone in the room focuses on whatever fit the kid is having and stops adult conversation.

And Bushs response to this hate? by far the biggest most deadly foreign F-up imaginable, the abject incompetence of the Bush administrations handling of the Iraqi people serves as a ton of salt on the open wound. Operation Ajax, support for tyrants worse than Saddam, all that other stuff is peanuts compared to the folly in Iraq.. but the only people that will pay for for this will be the military class, and probably a few more thousand regular Joe / Jane US citizens who get hit with a "terrorist" attack. Bush and his tulips of evil will be safe somewhere watching Sponge Bob, the repubs & Dems wont lose power and their pals in the industrial military complex will grow filthy rich and have lots of extra cheese to support their congress.

[LEADPIG]

Originally posted by AKKaz
Terrorists will always be there, you will never get rid of all of them no matter how/what you do. Same as bias and prejudices will never be a thing of the past.

The best you can do is confront what you can when it appears and watch for the rest.  People always find away to hate others, whether race, greed, religion, social standing, etc. it will be there.  Appeasement usually only gets the person appeasing the happy thought that the appeased is now satisfied.  The only problem with that is it only works when you give them what they want everytime they want it, doesn't matter if its fair and reasonable to you. Is there truely a "hearts and Minds" formula? Only if your deal to that individual is constantly better than the others.

I agree, a middle ground needs to be found between the 2 extremes.  But almost impossible given human nature is that each side wants 51% of the pie. And the side that didn't get 51% will beleive that instead of getting the other 49%, they only got 10%.

I agree a middle ground must be found between full scale all out war. Sending the worlds most powerful technological army against a bunch of guy's wearing street clothes setting out banana peels and bubble gum and waiting anonymously for us to step in it, is not an efficient way to run a war.  However full scale hearts and minds appeasement won't work either. Bending down and grabbing our ankles totally won't work, they'll just take advantage. We must find a middle ground.

I really hope President Bush won't go and mess the situation up with Iran way before it is completely nessecary that we go to war with them. I think if we acted less antagnistic at this point (such as agreeing to see the Pres of Iran when he comes to see you) and more respectful, we might even be able to get Iran to work with us. We gotta bargain untill we find bargaining is not necessary. We can't bargain with terrorists. It is too late they hate us already so they must be killed with violence. However people who are not terrorists, we must portray ourselves in a different light. We can help cut down terrorism alot in the future by how we work with people and what they feel about us.

[LEADPIG]

Originally posted by x0847Marine
I just happened to go to be enrolled in the 90210 school system in the late 70s / early 80s, the Shah was on the way out and the city was flooded with uber rich Iranians. Predictably the Jewish kids sat at the opposite end of the cafeteria, both sides traded verbal insults / arguments to the amusement of folks like me, in the middle, who didn't care.

I wrote off their crazy stories of a "US overthrow" of their .gov, as low budget mellow-drama conspiracy BS. My country, the land of the free, wouldn't support a despotic crapbag like the Shah, US officials on TV always praised the dude as some type of mid-east warrior for peace & justice.

Then I looked into their crazy stories, there had been no mention of anything like they described on the news, or in my so called "history" classes...  and found some info on operation Ajax, and suddenly understood quite clearly why these Persian kids were kinda pissed, where their angry rhetoric came from.

The average Iranian / mid east dude gets up in the AM and has the same concerns / motivations we do, they don't sit around hating on strangers 1/2 a world away because we have for porn, "free speech" & elections, I'll even bet a great number are exactly like my soon to be x-wifes family; they'd love to live the USA despite the lethal blunders of our so called leaders, and once here they'd become proud Americans.

This bumper sticker verbal vomit about "they" hating our freedoms should be too stupid for any critical thinker to even consider, it flies in the face of reality. Every time "they", the haters, are asked what their problem is, they tell us: its your .govs idiotic foreign policies.

But predictably there isn't enough spine or testicle in DC to man the f-up and admit what their parties are responsible for, neo-clowns like Giuliani would rather shout down informed folks like Dr. Ron Paul, then follow up with some sappy speech that plays on patriotic emotion that will surely end any reasonable debate. Giuliani shows us why 5 years act like 5 year olds and throw tantrums, because it works, everyone in the room focuses on whatever fit the kid is having and stops adult conversation.

And Bushs response to this hate? by far the biggest most deadly foreign F-up imaginable, the abject incompetence of the Bush administrations handling of the Iraqi people serves as a ton of salt on the open wound. Operation Ajax, support for tyrants worse than Saddam, all that other stuff is peanuts compared to the folly in Iraq.. but the only people that will pay for for this will be the military class, and probably a few more thousand regular Joe / Jane US citizens who get hit with a "terrorist" attack. Bush and his tulips of evil will be safe somewhere watching Sponge Bob, the repubs & Dems wont lose power and their pals in the industrial military complex will grow filthy rich and have lots of extra cheese to support their congress.

Marine i'd vote for you, at least you understand the reason beneath all this. Most Americans don't have a clue. They don't want to admit such things about our country and they use that "your unpatriotic bull****" as a superficial propoganda insult. People like you and me don't pay attention to people like that and look for the real reasons underneath the political smokescreen. People like that believe what the politicians say and go along with it. Politicians tell them sure we treat everyone good as roses, not totally true, that's why they hate us. If you don't understand that you won't have a clue how to address this war and the current situation. I'm not that easily intimidated or gullible. I'm like Joe Friday, all i want is "The facts, just the facts mam".

[lazs2]

soviet... I agree that terrorists will always be with us... for various reasons... it is not as simple as "take away their reason to hate us"  

If for instance their reason is that we won't make our women wear masks or that we won't bow to their 9th century religion... or that we simply are a bad example by our vary existence.

You are also correct that we will never be rid of them...

Sooo... given those two undeniable facts... the very best we can do is to minimize their ability to organize.   We can't appease em because... even if we convert... we will live in terror under their rule.. we can't walk away from em because they will bully and terrorize weaker nations into supporting them or outright converting to their sick interpretation of a religion.

If we pick a country in the heart of their region... their playground... any one will do..  and we make it so that it is invulnerable to their influence... their hold on other countries is much lessened...  

If we fight them and lose our will... walk away... what message does that send to countries who are trying to figure out what to do with their problem?

Like I said tho... I don't care... so long as it doesn't affect anything but the idiotic blue cities here... I already hate the airlines and metal detectors and all the BS homeland security stuff..  If we walk away.. that won't end.   It will become more because the democrats are better at restricting their own citizens than fighting.    We will see the terrorists emboldened by our wussing out and appeasment and they will attack us and the democrats will simply make life worse for us here over it with more bans and restrictions.

lazs

[FrodeMk3]

Originally posted by john9001
maybe you should ask the survivors of saddams elite battle hardened republican guard.

And I'll kindly point you to Ho Chi Mihn, and the Vietnam war.

The difference between The republican guard and the Viet Cong? A little thing called willpower, salted with determination.

Saddam's regular army collapsed. They could'nt wave their underwear over their heads' fast enough. The 'elite' republican guard formation's simply could not stand by themselves, no matter what method we chose to use against them.

In Vietnam, the VC stood against our technology and won...sometimes, by going as lo-tech as possible. The root of they're campaign was to win as much support to they're side as possible. Now, jump up 30 years, and look at Iraq today. The insurgents' seem to have taken the example set forth by the VC. Boobytraps, sporadic engagements, Winning popular support, Out-of-country sanctuaries...The Iraqi insurgents seem to have been taught by former VC.

Now, I will say the Tech. helps, to be sure...It might be what wins you a battle or two. But, It takes alot more to win the war.