Author Topic: Kudos to those Ivory Tower Libs..  (Read 2524 times)

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
Kudos to those Ivory Tower Libs..
« Reply #75 on: September 28, 2007, 09:43:20 AM »
Again... I have no problem with denying rights to people who are not citizens.. the right to enter the country for instance.

But... he was invited and came here legally and broke no laws.. we are not at war with him.  I was not forced to attend or even know what he said... If I want to.. I can... win win.

What bothers me more is people shouting down others who are trying to speak... to me.. that is more of a violation of free speech than anything.   To shout down a speaker is to deny the rest of us the right to hear them.

lazs

Offline Chairboy

  • Probation
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8221
      • hallert.net
Kudos to those Ivory Tower Libs..
« Reply #76 on: September 28, 2007, 09:53:33 AM »
Agreed w/ Lazs.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline VonMessa

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11922
Kudos to those Ivory Tower Libs..
« Reply #77 on: September 28, 2007, 10:27:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
Again... I have no problem with denying rights to people who are not citizens.. the right to enter the country for instance.

But... he was invited and came here legally and broke no laws.. we are not at war with him.  I was not forced to attend or even know what he said... If I want to.. I can... win win.

What bothers me more is people shouting down others who are trying to speak... to me.. that is more of a violation of free speech than anything.   To shout down a speaker is to deny the rest of us the right to hear them.

lazs



     Agreed.  We have granted him addmittance to our land and now, that he is here by our permission, he should, indeed be given the right to speak.

     #1 Because it does deny others the right to hear what he has to say.

     #2 Because now, since he is here and and is covered under 1st amendment right to speak, as a guest of our country.

     If we arbitrarily now deny him that right, what exactly is this saying about us?  Do as I say and not as I do probably doesn't sit well in any culture or any language.

     Please do not let me give the impression that I sympathize with the man.  My feelings are quite to the contrary.  We should not have taken him in as a guest in the first place, but since we did, we should follow our own rules rather than make ourselves out to be deceivers.
Braümeister und Schmutziger Hund von JG11


We are all here because we are not all there.

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
Kudos to those Ivory Tower Libs..
« Reply #78 on: September 28, 2007, 10:38:24 AM »
Ok... but.. that does not mean I will be swapping spit with the commies here on this board any more than with the republicans.

I only vote for the republicans because.. for me.. they will have less effect on my freedom than the democrats...  by a factor of at least ten or more.

I am an individualist... a constitutionalist... pretty much a much less wimpy version of a libertarian.   I realize that I will never have any political party to vote for so I make do with what comes up in front of me.

I also realize that bloody revolution would make me less free at least in the short term... likely for many decades... likely more restrictions on my freedom than even today.

The solution is to simply get away from people.   rural means.... being forgotten about by my fellow busybody "Americans"    Let them eat each other up with their whiney feel good laws and envy and self pity.  

I am no martyr.

lazs

Offline VonMessa

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11922
Kudos to those Ivory Tower Libs..
« Reply #79 on: September 28, 2007, 12:19:50 PM »
Again, Laz, agreed.


     Point being though, somewhere along the line, someone let him in.  That is the crux of the problem now.  Indeed, quite irresponsible.  I still believe that we should still walk the walk. so as to not contradict ourselves.  It lends creedence to exactly this type of person and the anti-American agenda.  I imagine the following type of statement: "Oh look, they allowed me here as a guest, and now are not following the rules of being a proper host, as dictated by their own laws.   How can they try to regulate others in other contries when they have plenty of turds to polish at home?"

     Let me state again that we should have left his filthy carcass out in the cold and never invited or allowed his presence to begin with.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2007, 12:21:54 PM by VonMessa »
Braümeister und Schmutziger Hund von JG11


We are all here because we are not all there.

Offline Chairboy

  • Probation
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8221
      • hallert.net
Kudos to those Ivory Tower Libs..
« Reply #80 on: September 28, 2007, 12:47:01 PM »
VonMessa, one problem with that is that it's basically what the Soviet Union would have done.  Unpopular opinion?  Fine, then you can't get a visa.  You're going to come over to be a missionary?  Fine, then you can't get a visa.

The only countries that would keep someone out specifically because of what they were going to say are the ones that are afraid of what they'll hear.  Allowing him in is a show of strength to the rest of the world.  "We don't just talk the talk about liberty," to borrow your wording, "we walk the walk as well.  Our country is founded on principles that no petty dictator can injure through his words."
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline VonMessa

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11922
Kudos to those Ivory Tower Libs..
« Reply #81 on: September 28, 2007, 01:03:23 PM »
Granted, what you say is truth, but why invite with the premeditated intent to belittle him in public.  It does indeed show strength to invite him.  I guess I could've been more specific.  Don't invite a guest and then piss on his cornflakes right away.  I mean this guy was lambasted preemptively, at the start by the "moderator" of all people.  Who is the fool now.  Doing that overshadows the whole inviting him as a guest notion.  It also shows a degree of deceit.
Braümeister und Schmutziger Hund von JG11


We are all here because we are not all there.

Offline Donzo

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2355
      • http://www.bops.us
Kudos to those Ivory Tower Libs..
« Reply #82 on: September 28, 2007, 01:20:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
VonMessa, one problem with that is that it's basically what the Soviet Union would have done.  Unpopular opinion?  Fine, then you can't get a visa.  You're going to come over to be a missionary?  Fine, then you can't get a visa.

The only countries that would keep someone out specifically because of what they were going to say are the ones that are afraid of what they'll hear.  Allowing him in is a show of strength to the rest of the world.  "We don't just talk the talk about liberty," to borrow your wording, "we walk the walk as well.  Our country is founded on principles that no petty dictator can injure through his words."


What about how and what is reported back in Iran about his speech?  We gave him the stage and he dodged most questions and spewed things that the people back home would love to hear.  I am sure that their media will take the parts that make him look good and cut out the rest...hell they probably won't even include the original questions, it will look like he was giving a speech.  "Wow look at him, he is a leader on the world stage!"

Sure letting him speak may have been the noble thing to do, but at what long term cost?  It's all going to go to propaganda that benefits him alone...we gain nothing by letting him come and speak.  Yes, we did get to see what a nut job he is.  But I think most of us knew that already...no need to show it again.

So yes, I agree that Our country is founded on principles that no petty dictator can injure through his words, but when those words are twisted and presented to another audience (not the USA), the outcome  can injure us.

Offline VonMessa

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11922
Kudos to those Ivory Tower Libs..
« Reply #83 on: September 28, 2007, 01:35:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Donzo
What about how and what is reported back in Iran about his speech?  We gave him the stage and he dodged most questions and spewed things that the people back home would love to hear.  I am sure that their media will take the parts that make him look good and cut out the rest...hell they probably won't even include the original questions, it will look like he was giving a speech.  "Wow look at him, he is a leader on the world stage!"

Sure letting him speak may have been the noble thing to do, but at what long term cost?  It's all going to go to propaganda that benefits him alone...we gain nothing by letting him come and speak.  Yes, we did get to see what a nut job he is.  But I think most of us knew that already...no need to show it again.

So yes, I agree that Our country is founded on principles that no petty dictator can injure through his words, but when those words are twisted and presented to another audience (not the USA), the outcome  can injure us.



Certainly by the old "see i told you they were the devil" idiom.  It can certainly incite violence towards the U.S.
Braümeister und Schmutziger Hund von JG11


We are all here because we are not all there.

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
Kudos to those Ivory Tower Libs..
« Reply #84 on: September 28, 2007, 01:57:48 PM »
ya know what... I don't care what his media says about his visit.. the point will still get across that we let him speak... that we hated his guts but we let him speak.

That in America.. no matter how unpopular your view..  you won't get dragged off the street and sent to some hole for the rest of the current regime.

Maybe... just maybe.. they will wonder why Americans are not invited to their universities to speak.

lazs

Offline FBBone

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 549
Kudos to those Ivory Tower Libs..
« Reply #85 on: September 28, 2007, 02:37:51 PM »
lazs, I truly hope that you are right.  I hope that what I think is proven to be false in this instance.  Somehow, I'm confident that it won't.  There are far too many over there that still believe in magical spells and the like for me to put a lot of confidence in them "seeing the light".  Time will tell.

Offline Torque

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2091
Kudos to those Ivory Tower Libs..
« Reply #86 on: September 28, 2007, 04:09:29 PM »
man... you guys never really get to know your adversaries...well until it's too late.

iranian universities are the epicenters of the democracy movement. i'd bet if it was aired they were all snickering throughout the hallways.

best you could do now is to send your village idiot over, at least then each would  realize both leaders are babbling moronic idiots.

Offline MORAY37

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2318
Kudos to those Ivory Tower Libs..
« Reply #87 on: September 28, 2007, 07:52:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
Again... I have no problem with denying rights to people who are not citizens.. the right to enter the country for instance.

But... he was invited and came here legally and broke no laws.. we are not at war with him.  I was not forced to attend or even know what he said... If I want to.. I can... win win.

What bothers me more is people shouting down others who are trying to speak... to me.. that is more of a violation of free speech than anything.   To shout down a speaker is to deny the rest of us the right to hear them.

lazs



I know it may be hard to believe, Laz, but we agree.  Toast to you!  
:0
"Ocean: A body of water occupying 2/3 of a world made for man...who has no gills."
-Ambrose Bierce

Offline MORAY37

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2318
Kudos to those Ivory Tower Libs..
« Reply #88 on: September 28, 2007, 08:10:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by FBBone
We're not talking about "most" Iranians here, are we?  No, we're talking about one in particular, and he's not pro-U.S.



With the bad punctuation in this post from you, I don't think you have any room to criticize the President:


A bit of an over use of the comma key, sir.  My God man, if you pause that much while speaking someone is likely to mistake it for a stuttering problem.

  But, as usual from you, any chance to jab at Bush is a good one.  


How, exactly, does this come into play here?  Not giving a radical foreign dictator a podium from which to bash us is now equal to craping on the Constitution?  He has a venue in our country, that is also hostile to our country, from which he can thumb his nose at the U.S. and the rest of the world.  It's called the U.N., let him speak from there.  By the way, I never said to silence the man, how you may have inferred that I'll never know.  I'm simply suggesting that, when someone is trying to bash us, we neither hand him the clubs nor a safe place from which to swing.


Are you kidding me?  My post was puntuated properly... grammatically correct,  with a subject and predicate to every sentence.  This is something which was quite the antithesis of your fragment laced tirade.  

Any jab at Bush?  The leader of our country actually said "childrens do not learn", without correction, and without comprehension of his gaffe.  He used that statement as an ARGUMENT for his policy, as a keystone point, actually.   You may defend him to your heart's content, the man is still a moron.

Also, sir, commas are intended for use to indicate natural pauses in reading, to prevent run on sentences, as well as limit the obvious malicious fragment.

You know, kinda like all those fragments you just typed up there.
"Ocean: A body of water occupying 2/3 of a world made for man...who has no gills."
-Ambrose Bierce

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Kudos to those Ivory Tower Libs..
« Reply #89 on: September 28, 2007, 08:30:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin

Freedom of speech is not given to us by the Constitution, citizen or not, the Constitution prohibits government from trampling on the rights which are inborn .


A key point which bears frequent repetition. TY.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!