Author Topic: Revolutions time? (Read 2333 times)

crockett · « **Reply #15 on:** September 26, 2007, 10:34:39 PM »

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Originally posted by Joker
When the political pendulum swings too far in one direction we have a mechanism to fix it. It's called an ELECTION.
We don't need a revolution.

Joker

The problem with this is, pretty much all politicians now days suck. Very few of them actually give a rats bellybutton about "we the people". All most of them are worried about is catering to special interest and big business so they can further their careers.

IMO every political office should hold term limits that allow at most 6 to 8 years in that position. Career politics is what has ruined this once great nation.

I do agree that our Constitution, is just fine. We just need a govt, that actually gives a rats bellybutton about it.

lasersailor184 · « **Reply #16 on:** September 26, 2007, 11:12:47 PM »

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Originally posted by crockett
The problem with this is, pretty much all politicians now days suck. Very few of them actually give a rats bellybutton about "we the people". All most of them are worried about is catering to special interest and big business so they can further their careers.

IMO every political office should hold term limits that allow at most 6 to 8 years in that position. Career politics is what has ruined this once great nation.

I do agree that our Constitution, is just fine. We just need a govt, that actually gives a rats bellybutton about it.

Nothing has been as damaging to this nation as the 16th Amendment has. Politicians without term limits is a mere sneeze compared to the damage the 16th has done.

Joker · « **Reply #17 on:** September 26, 2007, 11:12:49 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by crockett
The problem with this is, pretty much all politicians now days suck. Very few of them actually give a rats bellybutton about "we the people". All most of them are worried about is catering to special interest and big business so they can further their careers.

IMO every political office should hold term limits that allow at most 6 to 8 years in that position. Career politics is what has ruined this once great nation.

Yup, I agree with you, and I certainly support term limits. That would be a giant step in the right direction.
Once enough of us get fed up with the current crop, they will be voted out.

Joker

FrodeMk3 · « **Reply #18 on:** September 27, 2007, 02:45:36 AM »

Alot of people have said that nothing's wrong with the constitution. However, It's completely useless if it's not abided by. Also, It needs some things added to it- I, for one, would like to see an end to any form of monetary endorsements' outside of a serving member of Gov'ts pay. That is to say, make it illegal to accept money from any 'lobbyist', or any concern that can use cash to 'buy' votes, that make an elected representative vote contrary to the wishes of his/her constituency.

As it is now, one multinational corporation has more say in the U.S. Gov't. than any 10 million voters, simply because they have the money and resources to simply 'buy' the congressman they want or need. To put an end to this, we will probably need something like another Constitutional convention...whether at the end of an armed uprising, or...whatever might choose to transpire.

One more thing, though. When you take the U.S. and split it up demographically, racially, religously, etc. You find that any kind of armed insurrection, once it spreads, would simply turn to chaos. We have too many different groups of people in this country that all want something different. Instead of one populace rising to put right it's affairs, you would have races fighting each other, the poor simply trying to ransack what they could, people simply being oppurtunistic of the fighting to try to pull off what petty crimes they could, rather than actually take part and fix the situation we have now, etc.

To see what I base this statement on, you simply need to take a look at how many people have been turning out for elections, to see how many actually care about the politics of this country. The last 4-5 national elections have had the worst turnouts in american history.

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The poll shows that the average American and the average politician are simply disconnected. The concerns of the average American aren't represented inside the Beltway and it shows that what's huge news on the cable news channels and in the latest partisan shouting matches isn't what matters most to Americans. And America is fed up.

The thing you gotta catch in that article is, that they are talking about the average American. But the golden question there is, what is the average american???

badhorse · « **Reply #19 on:** September 27, 2007, 06:53:48 AM »

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Originally posted by Shuffler
They failed to come out when asked.

So they were killed!?

lazs2 · « **Reply #20 on:** September 27, 2007, 08:07:28 AM »

I think everyone is missing the point.. we get the government we want.

Have you ever seen spoiled children... really rotten spoiled.. who were happy? who loved and respected their parents?

The fact is.. the congress is giving us exactly what we we say we want... lots of free stuff paid for by everyone else. they work hard and long hours doing everything in their power to make sure that some group or another gets lots and lots of free stuff that is paid for by someone else.

Every year... we cry even louder because the government isn't giving us enough free stuff... isn't making sure that all trajedy.. all natural disaster... all hardship... is taken care of by some branch of government who will pay for it with someone elses money.

We think it is our "right" to be fed and housed and given medical care and tucked in at night.

If someone gets killed or injured... it is something the government needs to do something about. Matters not that he was doing something stupid... we need to wear lifejackets in the bath tub if enough people drown... we need to be told what to eat and what kind of sex we can have with other consenting adults... what we can watch or read.

We decide on freedom based on how much money it might cost our "government" if we have it... we cant even be trusted to defend ourselves.

No... the reason the approval rating is so low is because we want so much... we are spoiled children who don't even know what America was ever about much less how to get back.

We are worried that if the supreme court decides that the 2nd is indeed an individual right (which it is) that thousands of unconstitutional laws we asked our government to make will be wiped out.

We worry that we will gain freedom!!!!!

My approval rating for blue... and some red... voters is about as low as it is for congress...

lazs

john9001 · « **Reply #21 on:** September 27, 2007, 08:34:59 AM »

Gunslinger, read the declaration of independence.

and, crockett and I finally agree on something, term limits.

Gunslinger · « **Reply #22 on:** September 27, 2007, 08:41:42 AM »

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Originally posted by john9001
Gunslinger, read the declaration of independence.

and, crockett and I finally agree on something, term limits.

I never took an oath to uphold and defend the declaration of indepencence.

lazs2 · « **Reply #23 on:** September 27, 2007, 08:51:26 AM »

gunslinger... no one has defended the constitution for a very long time. We... all of us.. have chipped away at it because it is "too hard" to live by.

It doesn't have enough "heart". It doesn't help the people who are "slipping through the cracks through no fault of their own"

The military has not defended our constitution one single time from such an assault.

But they are no more guilty than the people or the government... we all have a part.

term limits and new politicians will be useless... we won't let them cut a single thing... we will never give up our greed for and envy for other peoples property and freedom.

The truth is that as a whole.. it angers us to see someone who has more or who lives more free than us.. it angers us to see an individual. It even angers us to see someone more happy than us... we demand of our politicans that he either make them stop or that he make us just as happy.

Hell... we think nothing of making people wear seatbelts... making grown men buckle up in their own car? I can't imagine what kind of constitution that touted individual rights would allow such a thing.

lazs

VonMessa · « **Reply #24 on:** September 27, 2007, 11:02:13 AM »

They beautiful thing about our constitution is that it lends itself to change. In fact, Jefferson himself stated that a revolution should happen every 10 years or so. The best part is that the constitution basically states this....

Here are the rules, if you don't like the rules, then you are free to change the rules with due process.

Yknurd · « **Reply #25 on:** September 27, 2007, 12:31:29 PM »

Damn right Lasz.

I mean, if I have a fist full of dollar bills and the stripper wants to sit in my lap, who is the government (federal or local) to tell us no?

crockett · « **Reply #26 on:** September 27, 2007, 03:07:13 PM »

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Originally posted by badhorse
So they were killed!?

So would you rather have every crack house raid turn into a 30 day hold out, because something "might" go wrong? I'm not saying the govt did the right thing in Waco, but it was pretty clear they were dealing in illegal firearms and other crimes. That would bring a ATF/FBI raid anywhere. There wasn't anything different in Waco vs any other raid, other than it went bad and more people were involved than a typical raid.

Sure the govt screwed it up and yea they should have taken him out side the house. "However" who knows what would have happened even then. They still would have had to deal with the other people that were still at the compound and they would have still had to raid the compound. At that point any possible element of surprise would have been gone and who knows how the others inside would have reacted to DK being taken captive. Hell they might have built even better defenses and faught back just the same as they did.

I'm pretty sure part of the reason the Govt screwed it up so bad, was the guys in charge probably second guessed themselves because they knew there were women and children inside. I'm sure the fact that they were some whacked out cult that had already threatened to return gunfire, had a little to do with how it played out as well.

FrodeMk3 · « **Reply #27 on:** September 27, 2007, 04:41:16 PM »

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Originally posted by crockett
So would you rather have every crack house raid turn into a 30 day hold out, because something "might" go wrong? I'm not saying the govt did the right thing in Waco, but it was pretty clear they were dealing in illegal firearms and other crimes. That would bring a ATF/FBI raid anywhere. There wasn't anything different in Waco vs any other raid, other than it went bad and more people were involved than a typical raid.

Sure the govt screwed it up and yea they should have taken him out side the house. "However" who knows what would have happened even then. They still would have had to deal with the other people that were still at the compound and they would have still had to raid the compound. At that point any possible element of surprise would have been gone and who knows how the others inside would have reacted to DK being taken captive. Hell they might have built even better defenses and faught back just the same as they did.

I'm pretty sure part of the reason the Govt screwed it up so bad, was the guys in charge probably second guessed themselves because they knew there were women and children inside. I'm sure the fact that they were some whacked out cult that had already threatened to return gunfire, had a little to do with how it played out as well.

Alot of that makes sense, crockett, but...

It's been said, that the reason the standoff went the way it did, was because not only did the Gov't. want Koresh, but they wanted to make an example of him, and his cult.

The real message from Waco was, The federal government will only tolerate so much, from any group.

They want you to think that this is what will happen to any militia, non-mainstream religous group, or other organization which they deem improper. They believe that fear will enable control.

Hap · « **Reply #28 on:** September 27, 2007, 06:30:12 PM »

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Originally posted by Yknurd
I mean, if I have a fist full of dollar bills and the stripper wants to sit in my lap, who is the government (federal or local) to tell us no?

What we want or can get that trips our trigger is a lousy definition of freedom.

I'd chuck the entire discourse, and eliminate all voices except those who are all fired up about what they can give.

Spoiled?

I should say so!

Toad · « **Reply #29 on:** September 27, 2007, 08:13:51 PM »

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Three minutes after the initial call, two Combat Engineering Vehicles approached the buildings, punched holes into the fragile walls, and began to spray teargas through nozzles into the compound, propelled by noncombustible carbon dioxide. Nearby were an Abrams tank and nine Bradley vehicles, while choppers flew overhead, taking aerial photos. Everyone was under orders that if children were in any way endangered, the mission was to be aborted.

Abruptly, the Davidians opened fire at the tanks. Yet the teargas injection continued and CS grenades were thrown in through the windows. The walls of the buildings were no match for the tanks, and large holes appeared wherever the tanks were used. Then the vehicles pulled back for an hour to reload and went at it again.

Gotta love it when the Bushbashers defend the use of heavy miltary armor against American citizens in their own home.

The Patriot Act is terrible? Well, how would a blatant violation of the Posse Comitatus Act be classified then?

Oh wait.. violating the Posse Comitatus Act is OK.

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There wasn't anything different in Waco vs any other raid

YGBSM!

Koresh was a total whackjob; he still didn't deserve what he got in this land of Constitutional freedom. The US Governement shouldn't knock down your house with military heavy armor. Period. There are clearly other and better ways.

What's next? JDAMS through your roof if you don't contribute to Moveon.org?