Author Topic: Revolutions time? (Read 2321 times)

Toad · « **Reply #45 on:** September 30, 2007, 09:49:45 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hornet33
In 1971, Deputy Secretary of Defense David Packard wrote the Packard Memo or Employment of Military Resources in the Event of Civil Disturbances which modified the Code of Federal Regulations, Title 32, Volume 2, Chapter 1, Part 215, Section 6. This addition revoked a substantial part of the 1878 Posse Comitatus Act providing for 'exceptions'

Nothing that happened to Koresh at Waco rises to the level that would make the affair one of the exceptions you have posted.

Nothing.

It was still illegal to put heavy armor, be it Guard or Regular, against those citizens.

lazs2 · « **Reply #46 on:** September 30, 2007, 10:10:50 AM »

Two good DVD's on Waco are "Waco the rules of engagement" (nominated for an academy award) and "Waco a new revelation"

These are documentaries with real footage.. real tapes of the "negotiations" and real interviews with the survivors.

they also review the forward looking infared with the guy who invented it and you can see soldiers dropping out of the bottom of the tanks and firing into the burning ruins at people trying to get out.

You can see the helicopters spraying the "compound" with machine gun fire.

You can hear the "negotiator" telling the Koresh aid that it "is too late" when the guy asks if they can just walk out and surrender.. the guys says. "you mean they will kill us?" and there is silence followed by.. "yes"

Regardless... it is a fact that the atf shot first for no reason. it is a fact that they could have served the warrants any time the week before and that koresh was willing to let anyone search the place including the local police who were not in the least afraid of him or his people.

It is a fact that 28 children were burned alive (and more adults) for nothing.

Why nothing? the warrants could have been served peacefully as I have stated and... when it was all over.. there were no automatic weapons.. none were ever found.

lazs

Jackal1 · « **Reply #47 on:** September 30, 2007, 12:36:46 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hornet33
Seeing as how Waco was a police matter the use of CS gas was perfectly legal.

The CS gas mixed with the propellant/misting agent, for the high volume injection into the building ,as was done in Waco, is not acceptable or legal under any circumstances.
It`s called murder.

lazs2 · « **Reply #48 on:** October 01, 2007, 08:58:07 AM »

and crock-it... yes, I do think that even in a crak house... you do not shoot into the building and set it on fire when there are dozens of children inside even if it has taken you a month with no resolution.

If you can't find a team with enough balls to go in then you just wait em out. You don't butcher children.

lazs

VonMessa · « **Reply #49 on:** October 01, 2007, 03:13:26 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by wrag
IN AN ENCLOSED SPACE, like the location of the children at Waco, plus the amount of gas used at Waco, C.S. GAS IS LETHAL!

There does that explain it any better?

Yes I was exposed to it while in the military. The amount used was considerably less then the amount used at Waco. So that makes it alright to use on children?

What gas mask? The children had gas mask?

The Geneva Convention bans it because???? why don't you do a look up?

IMHO there is NO justification for using C.S. gas at Waco and IMHO anyone trying to justify that use is either unaware of all the facts, a Gov. FAN, or in the future should be carefully examined for possible mental illness................ Janet Reno should have been tried for crimes against humanity AND her advisor's should have been tried right along with her, THAT is my opinion regarding the government use of C.S. gas at Waco.

As to what happened at Waco........... in it's entirety........

What? You gonna say they were just a bunch of religious nuts, and that somehow makes it alright? That being different then others somehow makes them all less then human? That somehow makes those children less then human? That they got what they deserved because they didn't do what the Government told them to do?

Jefferson, Adams, Franklin, Hancock, Washington, etc... DIDN'T do what the GOVERNMENT told them to do!

WHO is the Government? Or maybe I should ask who is the Government supposed to be? I did NOT, I do NOT, and I shall NOT condone what happened at Waco, OR Ruby Ridge.

Do I need to put all those quotes from my earlier post in again? You didn't read em? They don't make sense to you?

I do, in fact, read. If you are so inclined to read
Please some information at the following link CS GAS

I am still reading it described as non-lethal. Upon furthur reading, one may find that the agent it was mixed with for dispersal, dichloromethane, is organic and also non-lethal. Nowhere does it mention about any degree of lethality regardless of how well or poorly ventilated the area of use is. The worst case cited is where one may have a (non-lethal) allergic reaction that may cause crusted skin blisters.

As far as the Geneva Convention banning its use, I have indeed read about it. Use of all chenical weapons is banned. The only time CS is cated specifically is where it states that CS should not be used because it may lead to the enemy or opposition using a lethal chemical attack in retaliation. This info can be found via a link from the wikipedia site.

Condone it's use on children I do not.

Question it's lethality, I do.

Do the ATF personnel need to grow some stones? By all means.

Jackal1 · « **Reply #50 on:** October 01, 2007, 04:34:05 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by VonMessa
I do, in fact, read. If you are so inclined to read
Please some information at the following link CS GAS

I am still reading it described as non-lethal. Upon furthur reading, one may find that the agent it was mixed with for dispersal, dichloromethane, is organic and also non-lethal. Nowhere does it mention about any degree of lethality regardless of how well or poorly ventilated the area of use is. The worst case cited is where one may have a (non-lethal) allergic reaction that may cause crusted skin blisters.

As far as the Geneva Convention banning its use, I have indeed read about it. Use of all chenical weapons is banned. The only time CS is cated specifically is where it states that CS should not be used because it may lead to the enemy or opposition using a lethal chemical attack in retaliation. This info can be found via a link from the wikipedia site.

Condone it's use on children I do not.

Question it's lethality, I do.

Do the ATF personnel need to grow some stones? By all means.

Once more, check out Waco: The rules Of Engagement.

"AT NOON, TANKS HIT THE COMPOUND WITH AN ATOMIZED MIXTURE HEATED SO THAT IT WOULD
RELEASE HYDROGEN CYANIDE AND CARBON MONOXIDE.

Over 400 canisters were launched into their home, for a duration of over 6 hours.

*CS gas in large doses causes the victim to be come disorientated, it greatly diminishes their ability to make decisions.
It blinds them, and burns their lungs, causing vomiting of mucus and bile, and muscle wrenching seizures. Extended exposure causes unconsciousness and it can and does KILL*

Autopsies indicate that large numbers of people were already dead
from hydrogen cyanide gas before the fire.
People died from cyanide poisoning within four to five minutes.

The technical data also states CS powder will ignite at 327 F and once ignited will burn at temperatures as high as 4,200 F, causing it to function as a high-temperature fire accelerant.

Fire trucks were deliberately kept away until the building till it was only smoldering embers
-- for at least 41 minutes -- after the fire broke out."

wrag · « **Reply #51 on:** October 01, 2007, 04:52:34 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by VonMessa
I do, in fact, read. If you are so inclined to read
Please some information at the following link CS GAS

I am still reading it described as non-lethal. Upon furthur reading, one may find that the agent it was mixed with for dispersal, dichloromethane, is organic and also non-lethal. Nowhere does it mention about any degree of lethality regardless of how well or poorly ventilated the area of use is. The worst case cited is where one may have a (non-lethal) allergic reaction that may cause crusted skin blisters.

As far as the Geneva Convention banning its use, I have indeed read about it. Use of all chenical weapons is banned. The only time CS is cated specifically is where it states that CS should not be used because it may lead to the enemy or opposition using a lethal chemical attack in retaliation. This info can be found via a link from the wikipedia site.

Condone it's use on children I do not.

Question it's lethality, I do.

Do the ATF personnel need to grow some stones? By all means.

The concentration used and the confined area involved, they couldn't get OUT! They couldn't breath! They died!

I can say that because.........

I was exposed to C.S. during my time in the military. The amount used was VERY low compared to what was sprayed into that building. The reaction I got from just that little bit was pretty severe. The mucus flow produced by my reaction continued for some time afterward. Others that were exposed with me and similar reactions. Some were even throwing up afterward.

Those children NEVER had a chance!

As too wikipedia.... B. S. to it. I don't trust it and the reports are "The Government" regularly CHANGES the content of wikipedia on things they don't like!

I suggest you look elsewhere for your information!

Pooh21 · « **Reply #52 on:** October 01, 2007, 04:54:38 PM »

Waco was a crime pure and simple. the BATF wished to make a big news coup and make their public image better with a daring raid. The best thing about a revolution would have that entire organization from the director down to the seceratary chick in the mailroom tried for treason, convicted and put up against a wall.

x0847Marine · « **Reply #53 on:** October 01, 2007, 05:18:51 PM »

The solution is simple: don't re-elect the same two incompetent parties.

There is nothing easier and more soothing to the psyche than voting Independent, it's just as easy as voting for one of the existing failed DC crime families, and every time they do something felony stupid, a DC norm these days, you can sleep at night knowing your vote had nothing to do with it.

john9001 · « **Reply #54 on:** October 01, 2007, 06:38:22 PM »

what Independent is running for president? What Independent is running for any office? It's easy to say "vote Independent", but where are the candidates?

wrag · « **Reply #55 on:** October 01, 2007, 09:37:44 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by john9001
what Independent is running for president? What Independent is running for any office? It's easy to say "vote Independent", but where are the candidates?

Ron Paul looks VERY GOOD.

He's currently registered as a Rep. but he is actually a Liberatarion.

Do a lookup on the net and then FOLLOW the leads. Think you will find this person most interesting!

In all truth I've been considering changing my voter status from declined to state to Liberatarion.

Masherbrum · « **Reply #56 on:** October 01, 2007, 09:47:20 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Gunslinger
John as a member of the military (12 years of service) I can tell you this. The US Military will NEVER form a coup. It's not designed to follow a leader that isn't endorsed by the congress.

One thing is for sure. Every member of the military is sworn to "uphold and defend the constitution of the United States". That is we do not swear any type of alegence to the federal govt. itself except to "obey the orders of the commander in chief and the officers appointed over me". With that said it is hard pressed that we will follow a general that will lead us to a coup.

Without the order that we have now discipline in the US armed forces will be hard to maintain at best. Do lead a coup you'd have to have some hard core officers leading some well respected NCOs on a mission that they've never ever been trained to do.

IMHO it would be hard pressed to carry out with the current chain of command.

I am a Non-Commissioned Officer and I would have a hard time ordering members that I am in charge of to lead a coup against my government. The same goverment wich was elected by the people in accordance with the constitution that I swore to uphold and defend.

Although I have NEVER served. When "this topic comes up". They have all said this (Vet's): "I would not kill an American."

Toad · « **Reply #57 on:** October 01, 2007, 10:30:41 PM »

As Guns said US military swear to defend the Constitution, not a King, Queen or any person at all.

It's a very small point that has a very large effect.

VonMessa · « **Reply #58 on:** October 02, 2007, 06:25:08 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Toad
As Guns said US military swear to defend the Constitution, not a King, Queen or any person at all.

It's a very small point that has a very large effect.

It also states that a soldier will defend against all enemies, foriegn AND domestic.

VonMessa · « **Reply #59 on:** October 02, 2007, 06:25:45 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by wrag
Ron Paul looks VERY GOOD.

He's currently registered as a Rep. but he is actually a Liberatarion.

Do a lookup on the net and then FOLLOW the leads. Think you will find this person most interesting!

In all truth I've been considering changing my voter status from declined to state to Liberatarion.

Ron Paul is the way to go!:aok