Author Topic: Revolutions time?  (Read 2587 times)

Offline john9001

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Revolutions time?
« Reply #60 on: October 02, 2007, 07:27:51 AM »
Ron Paul is running as a republican.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #61 on: October 02, 2007, 07:31:22 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by VonMessa
It also states that a soldier will defend against all enemies, foriegn AND domestic.


Yes, it does. It actually says:

Quote
I DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR (OR AFFIRM) THAT I WILL SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES AGAINST ALL ENEMIES, FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC; THAT I WILL BEAR TRUE FAITH AND ALLEGIANCE TO THE SAME; AND THAT I WILL OBEY THE ORDERS OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND THE ORDERS OF THE OFFICERS APPOINTED OVER ME, ACCORDING TO REGULATIONS AND THE UNIFORM CODE OF MILITARY JUSTICE. SO HELP ME GOD.


So, are  you trying to make the case that Koresh and his group were a threat to the Constitution of the US?

Consider the Posse Comitatus Act and amendments/revisions thereto before you answer.

Because there is NO WAY the use of heavy armor was authorized/justified by either the oath or the Posse Comitatus Act + revisions.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline john9001

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« Reply #62 on: October 02, 2007, 07:43:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad

Because there is NO WAY the use of heavy armor was authorized/justified by either the oath or the Posse Comitatus Act + revisions.



one revision says military is authorized if drugs are involved as in catching drug smugglers.

the ATF/FBI lied to the gov to get him to authorize the use of the nat guard armor. They said it was for a "drug raid".

Offline Toad

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« Reply #63 on: October 02, 2007, 07:55:46 AM »
If what you say is true, it's just more proof that the use of the armor was totally unjustified.

People in government should have gone to prison over the Koresh raid.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #64 on: October 02, 2007, 08:08:36 AM »
at the end of the day... it just proves that the people who weep openly about car safety and global warming and all it will do to the "children"  are smugly happy that 28 children were smothered and burned to death by the government because their parents weren't the right kind of people.  

They don't really care about children at all.. they care about children if they can use em and that is it.

As for ron paul... we won't get to vote for him unless he runs as an independent  and then...  he will probly get most of his money from democrats who want hillary to win.  there are no democrats who would vote for a libertarian... a libertarian offends democrats even more than a republican does.. libertarian is the total opposite of democrat.

but... how does throwing my vote away on an independent and thereby letting some commie shrew like hillary get in..... how does that help me again?

What is the gain of my protest vote again?    

lazs

Offline VonMessa

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« Reply #65 on: October 02, 2007, 08:20:05 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by wrag
The concentration used and the confined area involved, they couldn't get OUT!  They couldn't breath! They died!

I can say that because.........

I was exposed to C.S. during my time in the military.  The amount used was VERY low compared to what was sprayed into that building.  The reaction I got from just that little bit was pretty severe.  The mucus  flow produced by my reaction continued for some time afterward.  Others that were exposed with me and similar reactions.  Some were even throwing up afterward.  

Those children NEVER had a chance!

As too wikipedia.... B. S. to it.  I don't trust it and the reports are "The Government" regularly CHANGES the content of wikipedia on things they don't like!

I suggest you look elsewhere for your information!


    Wrag, please point me in the right direction.  I bet that I could find (5) sources and find as many sets of different facts.

     Jackal, without proper references, your "quoted facts" to me may as well have come from Barney the drunk on the Simpsons.  In addition, typing them in all caps doesn't add anything to their validity.  Cite sources please.  For one to get all factual information from a dissertation that is clearly anti-establishment and was nominated for an academy award and an emmy award would be complete folly.  It would be equated to using the script for "Judge Dredd" as a basis of government.  And for pete's sake, hydrogen cyanide?  Most of the world knows this as Zyklon B.  Ever hear of it?  Are we employing the tactics of Nazi Germany now?  This also happens to be use in the gas chamber for capital punishment in the states.  Is is possible they may have exposed the children and themselves to it ala "Jonestown"?  Who will ever know for sure.  Furthurmore, if your sources do not give complete and empirical data from the autopsies, then your source fails to pass the most fundamental of acid tests.  Anything else is only promoting an alternate group of lies.

     As far as the ATF people are concerned they should all be hung by the balls.  Oh, wait, I don't recall any of the agents having any.  All they would've needed to do was exactly what our troops do every day now.  Don a flak jacket, kick in the doors, and go in personally.  They were probably afraid of the children.

     In conclusion, I again reiterate that what happened in Waco was an atrocity, and the tactics employed were indeed questionable if not blatantly irresponsible.
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #66 on: October 02, 2007, 08:40:42 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by VonMessa
In conclusion, I again reiterate that what happened in Waco was an atrocity, and the tactics employed were indeed questionable if not blatantly irresponsible.


More to the point, the tactics were blatantly illegal. Yet no one in government was held accountable.

Rant and rave about the Patriot Act all you like; at least it is being continually reviewed and amended by the judicial process. No one has died.

Waco was an act of war by the US government against its own citizens. Men, women and children were killed.

So which one really concerns us?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline VonMessa

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« Reply #67 on: October 02, 2007, 08:50:04 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Yes, it does. It actually says:



So, are  you trying to make the case that Koresh and his group were a threat to the Constitution of the US?

Consider the Posse Comitatus Act and amendments/revisions thereto before you answer.

Because there is NO WAY the use of heavy armor was authorized/justified by either the oath or the Posse Comitatus Act + revisions.


     No, not at all Toad.  Only proving the lies by the ATF.  Drug raid my behind!  And to get the military involved?  Bah.

     In defense of the troops, here are the the General Orders (for the Army at least, I only know the ones for the branch of service I volunteered for):

1. I will guard everything within the limits of my post and quit my post only when properly relieved.

2. I will obey my special orders and perform all of my duties in a military manner.

3. I will report violations of my special orders, emergencies, and anything not covered in my instructions to the commander of the relief.

     To do anything less than follow orders is to get yourself or others around you killed.  Blah blah, to those who say following orders is robot-like, and no excuse.  If you are are a serviceman/woman, your function is to either make or obey orders.  You are not authorized to be inventive, clever, or disobdient.  

     The job may not always be easy, but I don't recall EASY  being in the contract.  Nor does it say you must like your job.  You only need to execute orders precisely and without hesitation.
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #68 on: October 02, 2007, 08:51:12 AM »
toad... you have stated the salient fact.   it was illegal and it was an evil.

If the people in the "compound" would have been a few more degrees likeable or less threatening to the average American... there would have been outrage.

The clan was vilified and made less human tho sooo... not many could identify with em..

Even so.. if there had been say 5 incidents like Waco all going on at the same time.... even the most dense and smugly secure American would have gotten it.... that our government is just like every other one there ever was... that it will kill us in a blink of an eye if it feels threatened.

lazs

Offline VonMessa

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« Reply #69 on: October 02, 2007, 08:55:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
More to the point, the tactics were blatantly illegal. Yet no one in government was held accountable.

Rant and rave about the Patriot Act all you like; at least it is being continually reviewed and amended by the judicial process. No one has died.

Waco was an act of war by the US government against its own citizens. Men, women and children were killed.

So which one really concerns us?


     People should still be accountable, by all means.  As long as the troops are not dragged into it.  As far as most of them we aware of, they were doing their duty, as ordered.  I, personally, would like it to stay that way.  Especially when it comes time to defend ourselves from foriegn enemies.
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #70 on: October 02, 2007, 08:56:37 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by VonMessa
If you are are a serviceman/woman, your function is to either make or obey orders.  You are not authorized to be inventive, clever, or disobdient.  

     


Lawful orders; don't forget that little modifier.

There's that UCMJ thing that you have to remember.

Would you have obeyed Calley at My Lai? Were those lawful orders?

Nope. You'd have to be disobedient in that case, right?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline VonMessa

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« Reply #71 on: October 02, 2007, 08:59:13 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
toad... you have stated the salient fact.   it was illegal and it was an evil.

If the people in the "compound" would have been a few more degrees likeable or less threatening to the average American... there would have been outrage.

The clan was vilified and made less human tho sooo... not many could identify with em..

Even so.. if there had been say 5 incidents like Waco all going on at the same time.... even the most dense and smugly secure American would have gotten it.... that our government is just like every other one there ever was... that it will kill us in a blink of an eye if it feels threatened.

lazs


     Well said.  Make them out to be the devil, so nobody gives a crap.  Age-old tactic which s unfortunately, still effective.
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #72 on: October 02, 2007, 09:05:39 AM »
yep toad.. well said... the orders were not lawful.

At least not under any constitution that I would want to live under.

lazs

Offline VonMessa

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« Reply #73 on: October 02, 2007, 09:18:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Lawful orders; don't forget that little modifier.

There's that UCMJ thing that you have to remember.

Would you have obeyed Calley at My Lai? Were those lawful orders?

Nope. You'd have to be disobedient in that case, right?



     I'm not recalling  where it ever said lawful in MY general orders.  That would leave my duty to self interperatation.  That is not a soldiers job to play lawyer.

     Point taken, but unfortunately, who's place is it to determine what is lawful in any given circumstance.  Not moral, but lawful.  I know that the geneva convention states that a soldier cannot be proscecuted for following orders, but please excuse me, I'm not sure what what the UCMJ has to say about it.  It has been quite  some time since its rules have governed me.

   *EDIT*  Also, there we rapes, mutilations, etc at My Lai that were blatently unlawful, and it was mostly women and children.

     It was quite unfortunate that Calley was the only one proscecuted.  Most of the troops that were under his command had finished their tour and service and were, therefore exempt from proscecution under the law.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2007, 09:32:23 AM by VonMessa »
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #74 on: October 02, 2007, 09:50:14 AM »
Check out Article 92 of the UCMJ, Failure to obey order or regulation.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!