Author Topic: Bf 109F info  (Read 14787 times)

Offline Gianlupo

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Bf 109F info
« Reply #150 on: October 11, 2007, 04:00:04 AM »
Thanks! :)

Quote
Originally posted by Meyer
The report states that while the G55 is better than the 109 in "kurven" fight, it is worse than the 190. But, as I said before, that could mean a different kind of turnfight as we think


Yep, it should be a different kind of turnfight... the 190 turns worse than a 109... at least, that's the sensation I get in this game! :D

EDIT: yes, it has to be some different kind of turnfight... the 55 has a much lighter wingloading than the 190. Btw... the translation says: "In turning-flight combat the airplanes were equivalent." (G.55 vs FW 190) I'm afraid you looked at the 205/190 comparison. ;)
« Last Edit: October 11, 2007, 04:29:10 AM by Gianlupo »
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Offline Meyer

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Bf 109F info
« Reply #151 on: October 11, 2007, 07:01:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gianlupo

EDIT: yes, it has to be some different kind of turnfight... the 55 has a much lighter wingloading than the 190. Btw... the translation says: "In turning-flight combat the airplanes were equivalent." (G.55 vs FW 190) I'm afraid you looked at the 205/190 comparison. ;)


Oops... yes sorry, you are correct.

Offline Knegel

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Bf 109F info
« Reply #152 on: October 17, 2007, 01:27:17 PM »
Hi,

none of the tested italian planes was usable for ground attacks, this the testers saw as a major drawback.

The G55 was the only airframe in the test to be comparable to the german planes(109G4/190A5), IF it get the DB603.

With the italian DB605A the plane wasnt better than the german planes and with the weight of two more cannons the plane would have needed the more strong engine, otherwise it wouldnt be any better than the 109 with gunpods or the 190A5 with two more cannons.

As we know the DB603 came very late and the DB605 in the 109 got much more power.

Regarding the 109F, i doubt it was the best 109. It was the 109 with the badest oponets in comparison to its own performence, just like the 109D in Spain.
The 109F vs the 1943/44 SpitIXc, P47D, P51B, La5F, P38J and specialy B17, B24, IL-2, Pe-2 etc would have been more hopeless than the 109G, which was still very comparable in clean condition, specialy later with MW50.
The best 109 imho was the 109G14AS. It had all possible Rüstsätze, a clean surface and much power over a very wide altitude range.

The german HQ wanted to get rid of the 109, not cause the design itself was to old, but cause the design wasnt made for the task they did need it.  
If the Luftwaffe would have had 1000 4-Mots and would have bombed england, the RAF HQ would have sayed the same regarding the Spitfire and P51.  
The 109 was made as a short range interceptor to face fighters and twin engined planes in an tactical airwar. In this role the 109 did shine till the end(as topcover for the "schwere Gruppen", over Russia).

When the 109F saw service the main airwar still was mainly tactical nature(ground support) and the Luftwaffe Pilots was on the top of their skill and the oponets often was without training(russia/US pilots over Africa) and/or with worse planes(I-16, Yak1, Mig3, Lagg3, P40C-E, P38G, HurriII).
This made the 109F to one of the best planes of its time, but not to the best 109.
The undercarriage problem is imho much overrated. What pilots should fly a modern high performence fighter??  For sure nothing else than at least seasoned skilled pilots.  The normal young german pilots from 1944/45 probably would have crashed the P51´s with full rear tank short after take off and would have had a stallfest with the Spit´s and specialy CW Spits.

The 109 was good till the end.  Imho the long stop regarding an effective development of the DB605 (42-early 44 same power) was the main problem of the 109, not the airframe itself.
Specialy in 1943 the allied planes of all nations got a major boost regarding the power(SpitVLF, SpitIXc, La5F, P47D, P38H), while the DB605A, same like the BMW801D-2 did stuck almost two years with the same power.
The MW50 and AS  or D for the DB605 simply came to late. With MW50 already at in mid of 1943, the escort fighters would have had much more problems to catch a 109 with 3 cannons also the La5´s have been even more in trouble.

As we can see in the comparison between the german and italian planes, the 109 airframe still made the best out of the DB605A.  With MW50 the 109 was up to date again, not absolut the best anymore, but still comparable.

Greetings,

Knegel

Offline gatt

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Bf 109F info
« Reply #153 on: October 20, 2007, 10:37:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gianlupo
About the page regarding Guidonia tests: is it possible to have a translation?


Gian PM me your e-mail address and'll send you a translation (in italian) of the whole Rechlin document.
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

Offline Angus

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« Reply #154 on: October 20, 2007, 05:53:00 PM »
"none of the tested italian planes was usable for ground attacks, this the testers saw as a major drawback"

Yet just as good for strafing as a 109F.

Think about nitpicking. The least of the LW's worries would have been more fighters.
As for the DB 603, didn't it get tested within the 109 airframe eventually? And with not impressive results?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #155 on: October 20, 2007, 06:18:26 PM »
Angus, what 109 was good for ground attacks? :D ;)

Offline DrDea

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« Reply #156 on: October 20, 2007, 11:31:24 PM »
Ever see a 109 attacking a P 47?It looks like a fruit fly trying to hump a hippo.Well....a fruit fly with a huge noodle.:rofl
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Offline gatt

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Bf 109F info
« Reply #157 on: October 21, 2007, 02:19:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
As for the DB 603, didn't it get tested within the 109 airframe eventually? And with not impressive results?


No, 109's airframe could not mount the DB603 without major modifications. The G.55 was the only DB605A powered fighter able to do it.

It would be interesting to see the 3 cannons armed G.55 compared with the gunpods armed 109G-2 or early G-6. I'd pick the italian fighter anyway. She was faster and with much more ammo load.
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

Offline Viking

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« Reply #158 on: October 21, 2007, 10:30:19 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by MiloMorai
Angus, what 109 was good for ground attacks? :D ;)


From the 109E-4b onwards they all had impressive air-ground ordnance options.


Quote
Originally posted by gatt
No, 109's airframe could not mount the DB603 without major modifications. The G.55 was the only DB605A powered fighter able to do it.

It would be interesting to see the 3 cannons armed G.55 compared with the gunpods armed 109G-2 or early G-6. I'd pick the italian fighter anyway. She was faster and with much more ammo load.


The G.55 was not faster than any 109G, even if the 109 carried gun pods.


Quote
Originally posted by DrDea
Ever see a 109 attacking a P 47?It looks like a fruit fly trying to hump a hippo.Well....a fruit fly with a huge noodle.:rofl


That's the beauty of the 109 (and Spitfire). Tiny plane, big engine, big guns. :)

Offline gatt

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Bf 109F info
« Reply #159 on: October 21, 2007, 12:50:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
The G.55 was not faster than any 109G, even if the 109 carried gun pods.


The G.55 top speed at 7,4Km was 620Km/h. This at the limited rate of 1.3ATA and 2.600rpm. Was the gunpods armed 109G faster? Hmmmm ...
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

Offline Viking

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« Reply #160 on: October 21, 2007, 01:43:39 PM »
Yes I believe so. The G.55 had a top speed of 385 mph, the 109G-2 (without gun pods) did 405 mph. I don't know exactly how mush speed is lost on the 109G by carrying the pods, but 20 mph seems a lot. I might be wrong. :)

Offline gatt

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« Reply #161 on: October 21, 2007, 02:17:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
Yes I believe so. The G.55 had a top speed of 385 mph, the 109G-2 (without gun pods) did 405 mph. I don't know exactly how mush speed is lost on the 109G by carrying the pods, but 20 mph seems a lot. I might be wrong. :)


Viking, have you evidence of the engine settings which have been used to get (may I say ... pods-less ;)) to 405mph at altitude?
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

Offline Viking

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« Reply #162 on: October 21, 2007, 03:00:01 PM »
I don't really know. I would guess 1.42 ata. However it is inconsequential. If the G.55 was limited to 1.3 ata then "that is that" as they say. The question was if the G.55 was faster than a 109G, not if it would be faster with a better engine. :)

Also the G.55 engine is listed as a Fiat R.A 1050 Tifone (license-built Daimler-Benz DB 605A-1) liquid-cooled inverted V-12, 1,085 kW (1,475 hp).

The DB605A-1 is listed with a maximum power of 1,475 PS at 1.42 ata @ 2,800 rpm.

My conclusion is that the G.55 did 385 mph at 1.42 ata @ 2,800 rpm. Not 1.3 ata.

Offline gripen

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« Reply #163 on: October 21, 2007, 04:19:06 PM »
Hm... tested G.55 carried 1x20mm, 4x12,7mm and 625l fuel (internally) while tested G-4 carried 1x20mm, 2x7,9mm and 400l fuel (internally). At similar load the Bf 109G would had been considerably slower and slower climbing plane than the G.55, not even mentioning the ability of G.55 to carry cannons internally in the wing and external loads (like torpedo). Basicly the G.55 was far more capable airframe than the Bf 109.

Offline Viking

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« Reply #164 on: October 21, 2007, 04:33:09 PM »
The German report posted earlier said the G.55 could not carry external ordnance due to the placement of the landing gear and radiator, and that this was seen as a major drawback for the Germans. The torpedo carrying version was modified to the extent it was given a new designation: G.57. None were produced. Since the G.55 could not carry external ordnance it was limited to 650 litres of fuel. The 109G could carry 700 litres of fuel with one drop tank. Some versions could carry two drop tanks for a total of 1000 litres (very little used tough).

That the G.55 was a good climber is not surprising: It had less wing loading. The Spitfire also climbed better than the 109 at the same power, even if it was a heavier plane. The 109 however was always faster at the same power. Speed is life.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2007, 04:35:56 PM by Viking »