Bf 109F info

[humble]

Originally posted by TimRas
OK, no intellellectual and honest argument from you, buh, bye.

Yawn....

So your vikings ghost account or just a voice from the peanut gallery?

So i'll ask you the question, if the 109 is such a superior plane why did the Luftwaffe formally ask for it to be phased out in favor of the G.55 which it felt was clearly superior?

[2bighorn]

Originally posted by humble
if the 109 is such a superior plane why did the Luftwaffe formally ask for it to be phased out in favor of the G.55 which it felt was clearly superior?

Luftwaffe never asked for 109 to be phased out in favor of G.55.

It's true however that Luftwaffe was interested in G.55 production.

[humble]

Originally posted by 2bighorn
Luftwaffe never asked for 109 to be phased out in favor of G.55.

It's true however that Luftwaffe was interested in G.55 production.

No the luftwaffe formally asked for all 109 production to be stopped and for those factories to switch production the the g.55. This is simple historical fact...

The request was denied on the basis that the G.55 was a much more complex design and would take more then double the production hours per plane. In addition there were concerns specific to the complexity of assembly and the relatively unskilled production force available.

Again this is historical fact.

[humble]

I couldnt find what I was looking for but here is another perspective more in line with the mainstream...

german attrition

Murray touches on some of the other arguement. Basically the luftwaffe was attrited beyond recovery in the East...however he focuses on the campiagn in the west as the back breaker. The other view is that this attrition at the "NCO" level degraded these units beyond repair while still in the east.

As a side note the records here correspond with the 572 med losses for april. Again I dont see those losses reflected in unit histories (where I can find them)...so I still think there is a lag in reporting since alot more activity occured in Feb/March then April...

[Angus]

Humble:

A tickeling thing for you to dip into is perhaps  exactly the Axis transfer of aircraft from the eastern front to the med.
This began already in 1942. Operation Torch sucked aircraft out of the BBQ of Stalingrad. Then on and on. Torch, - the fall of Tunisia, then Sicily, and after that, the Italian campaign.
Anyway, I had always thought that the LW got mostly grinded up in Russia from the mid-war, and was amazed to look at their loss records etc compared to their losses to i.e. the RAF in N-Africa.
I have no doubts since I did indeed browse the LW  loss records from microfilm in the IWM London. I was absolutely stunned that the LW seemed to be loosing aircraft on a bigger scale in Tunisia than at Stalingrad!!!
Then to put some dressing on this, I stumbled on consistent reports of 190's in the Tunisian campaign (190's as mostly being considered a more dangerous opponent than the 109 by RAF pilots). I got into hot debates on the reliability on this. Then the second dressing, - a little mystery that discredits LW sources.  A humble Stuka that was fished out of the Med recently and is now in a museum at Sinsheim Germany. The aircraft is quite intact, It is in desert camo, it belonged to Stg77 as well as I remember, and is registered in STALINGRAD.
So, according to the German documents it should have been in Stalingrad, there are no docs of it's loss, and it was fished out of the med wearing desert camo.
It points directly at that:
1: LW loss records were and are yet not complete
2: LW may have sent (and lost) nore aircraft to the med than they registeed.

[Viking]

Originally posted by humble
No the luftwaffe formally asked for all 109 production to be stopped and for those factories to switch production the the g.55. Instead of trying to document my delusional view I hide behind the lie: "This is simple historical fact...", like I always do.

Keep trolling Humble. It's very entertaining!

[Angus]

Do not omit the German politics at the time. Willy Messerscmitt was being tossed around a bit. You had strong political forces working for and against camps, - the Willie camp, the Tank (190) camp, the Heinkel camp, and then the Junker's camp (Nazi-bossing destroyed Hugo Junkers, - it was Milch) etc.
Politics.... Do you see political influences in the fighter aircraft selected today????

[Meyer]

Originally posted by Angus
Then the second dressing, - a little mystery that discredits LW sources.  A humble Stuka that was fished out of the Med recently and is now in a museum at Sinsheim Germany. The aircraft is quite intact, It is in desert camo, it belonged to Stg77 as well as I remember, and is registered in STALINGRAD.
So, according to the German documents it should have been in Stalingrad, there are no docs of it's loss, and it was fished out of the med wearing desert camo.
It points directly at that:
1: LW loss records were and are yet not complete
2: LW may have sent (and lost) nore aircraft to the med than they registeed.

Quite intact seems a little optimistic



And there´s nothing misterious about that Stuka, yes it belonged to 4./StG 77 and fought in Russia, then was transferred to an Ergänzungskampfstaffel in France, remember that it was a B version, quite old by 1944. Was lost in august 16 1944 in the mediterranean attacking ships. It was rescued, partially, from 60 m deep in St Tropez.
So don´t jump too early to conclusions  

[MiloMorai]

I wouldn't read too much into the so-called desert camo on the Ju87 Angus.
Ju87Bs were being used as nocturnal bombers and had a similar scheme if viewed in black and white. Never mind the 60 years under water.

Oh yes, some parts of the SU are quite desert like.

[Angus]

Meyer:
That is new to me! When I saw that aircraft at Sinsheim some few years back there was a text there claiming that is was not clear why it was in the med since LW records showed it to be from Sth77 supposedly in Stalingrad.
I surfed the net and found just that. I even posted it on this forum!
At the time I was looking into the reported sights of 190's in the med (at the fall of Tunis), and got involved in hot debates with Crumpp about it.
Anyway, my theory was that in the falling of Tunisia aircraft were being tossed from the eastern front (as they indeed were), as replacements and/or additions in that particular case of emegency (evac and escort) so I guess "Ergänzungskampfstaffel" is quite a good word. My point on that Stuka was fact vs available document, - i.e. although the information available at the time pointed out that it should have been in Stalingrad, - well the fact still remained that it was fished out of the med.
About the 190's I never completely found out. There were several sightings and engagements, but I did not find a claim on them. The allied pilots reporting them were veterans BTW, and I immediately had 3-4 cases. By best bet was that either they were also "Ergänzung" from the easter front, from Italy, or simply jabos quickly modded as much as possible and pressed into escort uses. I recall Crumpp being very stiff about this, claiming they were missighted and being Italian RE's.
Anyway, nice to have things reveiled. TY Meyer.

And Milo, - It did indeed look as if in desert colour. More so than on the picture. And pretty intact when you think what it went through

Anyway, bottom line, sent from the East to see it's fate in the med.

[Wmaker]

BF 109 first flew before any other major fighter type of the war which could, during the war, over perform it in any performance category that actually mattered. There are also many fighter types that flew after it that could never match its performance, P-40, F4F and the Hurricane series for example.

For a fighter that was the first one to fly* from its generation in time when military aviation developed in a mind boggling rate and yet remained competitive throughout the war.

Gloster Gladiator first flew in 1934 and was one of the last fighters of its generation. The first jet flew five years later and five more years from the first jet, worlds first jet fighter was in operational service. During a time like this one year is a long time of development.

I've yet to see a primary source which states that the Luftwaffe wanted to replace 109 production with G.55. It has been asked from humble on this thread and he fails to produce a source again and again.

If such a decision would have been made it would have resulted in a operational and war economical catastrophe. To just switch several factories to produce a new fighter type would have been a mammoth task and taken many months out of the production. G.55 would have taken a lot more strategic material per plane and been slower to produce because of its construction, size and because of the way the undercarriage was laid out compared to the 109. G.55 has almost 5 square meters larger wing area than the 109 and around 570kg higher weight compared to a early production G-6. The end result would have been a fighter which would have been slower with worse climb rate than 109 when using the same engine. The only real operational advantage I can see would have the ability to carry those three cannons better. Development of the DB603 had its share of problems and I doubt they could have put G.56-standard fighter into production much earlier than 109K-4 production. Anyway...this is all ifs coulds and woulds. I know that for example Kurt Tank wanted to produce G.55 in Germany but I have never heard anything about totally replacing 109 production. It would have been a war economical suicide.

BF 109 was a very suitable fighter for the germans because of their very limited recourses compared to its enemies. It is very well known that roughly 2 109s could be built with the expense of one 190. BF 109 as a design also suffered greatly from the lack of resources. For example K-4 was already seen as aircraft with a mixed construction of wood and metals. The use of steel and wood made the planes heavier than they would have been if aluminum alloys would not have been replaced with these materials. If Germany would have had the same strategic resources as the allies did in the end of the war 109K-4 for example would have been a totally different fighter aircraft even if the basic design would have remained basically same.

The bottom line is that 109 managed to remain competitive throughout the war which many fighters that flew their first flights before the war could not do. In the end of the war it hardly was the best fighter aircraft because of many many reasons but its performance still remained close to the latest allied fighters. That's IMO a pretty remarkable achievement by a plane that was the first of its generation in a time when military aviation developed in quantum leaps.


*(I-16 can be argued to be the first one as well...but the operative fighters had an open cockpit.)

[Viking]

Excellent writeup Wmaker. I agree completely.

[hogenbor]

I saw that Stuka a few years ago. Recently scanned some old negs with that bird on it. Seems like they have changed the display a bit.

[TimRas]

A Summary Of Humblisms from The Cloud-Cuckoo-Land:

Originally posted by humble

Actually the P-39 was the most feared russian plane on the eastern front...German units were often under orders to avoid combat with P-39 equipped units

Yet things had gotten so bad that the luftwaffe itself petitioned for all 109 production to cease in favor of the 190 and G.55 (and/or C 205). The simple reality is that the 109 had gone from a superior plane to a somewhat inferior one. The german losses at the Kuban bridgehead were never really replaced and the loss of so many seasoned pilots never overcome

The early 109 had mixed armorment and superior performance (neg G carb)...

Kuban was a meat grinder in whcih the luftwaffe lost over 1000 combat airplanes..

As a general rule russian claims were a bit stricter since they had similiar guidelines to the german in WW1 where you needed infantry confirmation for a kill....

No the Luftwaffe formally asked for all 109 production to be stopped and for those factories to switch production the the g.55. This is simple historical fact...

[Angus]

Hehe, nice summary

109 carb....now what kind was that one?