Author Topic: Can we classify styles / techniques?  (Read 1696 times)

Offline mtnman

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Can we classify styles / techniques?
« on: October 03, 2007, 05:54:40 PM »
I'm starting this thread to answer a question asked in a different thread.  Namely, is it possible to differentiate between different basic styles or techniques used in air combat in AH.

We commonly use terms such as Bnz (Boom and Zoom), TnB (Turn and Burn), and E-fighting to describe different methods of employing ACMs during air combat.

Several points were brought up noting that all three styles use E management, flight manuevers, etc, so there was really only one "style" or technique employed, negating the need to classify them seperately.

So which is true?  Is there only one way to fight?  Are we all fighting the same?  Or are there different "styles" that can be grouped into generic categories?  Is there a reason or need to keep them grouped together?  Or a reason or need to attempt dividing them?

If we divide them, can we classify (name) them?

Is it possible for two different pilots using the same general strategy to have different individual "styles"?  Or are individual styles limited to ice skating?  Can you recognize pilots by the way they fly?

I'll start-

I think there ARE different basic "styles" or strategies employed during our air combat clashes.

I think it IS possible to classify them into basic groups.

I think it IS necessary to classify them seperately.

I'll start with my basic "idea" or definition of each style, and hopefully by the end of this discussion we will have a consensus for each, or a consensus for none.

BnZ-  
In my mind, this is a style characterized by the aggressor having and maintaining a positive energy advantage (speed, altitude, or both), and attempting to turn that advantage into a shot solution.  A higher, often faster plane drops down (Booms) to take a shot at a lower, often slower opponent with little threat to himself.  Whether or not the shot attempt is successful, the aggressor "zooms" back up to altitude, maintaining his energy advantage.  This will cost some E, but if the lower pilot evades, he will also lose energy, with a net result very similar to the initial opening scenario.  If the lower pilot doesn't evade, he dies.  The aggressor will generally use ACMs that will result in the minimum loss of energy, allowing for repeated attempts at the lower opponent.  Sharp turns are avoided, and lots of sky is used.  Higher wing loaded, heavy planes fit my image of BnZ planes best.  P51's, 109's, etc.  These planes handle better at high speed, and have relatively low turn rates compared to a "TnB" plane.

TnB-
This style of fighting is characterized (in my mind) by tighter turning manuevers that result in a higher loss of energy.  Large amounts of energy may be "scrubbed" in an attempt for an early shot solution.  In some cases, it may even appear that there is a "race" to be the slower plane, in an effort to tighten the turn radius beyond that of your opponent.  Of course, energy management is still an issue, but TnB fights that drag out beyond thirty seconds or so often result in both planes at or near minimum controllable airspeed, and quite often on the deck.  An energy deficit may often actually be to your advantage in a TnB fight.  Slower, lighter wing loaded generally fit my image of a TnB plane.  Zero's, Hurri's, etc.  These planes benefit more from a slow, tighter turning fight than a plane suited more for BnZ.  Often they don't even perform well at the higher speeds common to the BnZ planes.  

Can a BnZ plane use TnB tactics, or vice versa?  Yes, but each would generally do better if it stayed in it's "style", and convinced his opponent to stray from it's own.  For example, in a slow, tight, on the deck TnB fight, I would expect the zero to prevail over a P51 the vast majority of the time, assuming both utilized the same strategy.  In a faster, looser fight I would expect the opposite.

P51 vs P51, (or any other matched fight) it wouldn't matter as much which tactic was used.  However, if one pilot opts to scrub speed and turn tight, while the other burns less E and maintains his speed one pilot could end up with a significant advantage over the other if a kill isn't quickly made.

So, we have a tighter, slower, energy burning type of fight, and a looser, faster more E conservative fight.  Are they the same?  Would some planes perform better in one type of fight, while others perform better in the other?  Would it matter what "style" was employed if the planes that met were similar?  Disimilar?

Hot water- Cold water.  Are those the only options?  Are they even options?  What if we mix them?  Warm?  Cool?

Can we mix TnB with Bnz?  Possibly even merge from one style into the other in the same fight?  Maybe even back and forth in an attempt to beat your opponent?

In my mind yes, and I would consider that to be "E-fighting".  That would be a style using energy advantage OR deficit to your apparant advantage.  Tighter turning than BnZ, looser than TnB, or even to each extreme.  This is where I would group some of the oddball strategies, such as roping.  Definitely a more vague idea than BnZ or TnB, but then again "warm" or "cool" are more vague than hot or cold.  Not really BnZ, not really TnB, but definately both.

Is it necessary or desirable to differentiate between the different styles?

Yes- if we want a basis of comparison in order to communicate to others.  How do we communicate basic ideas to others without classification, and a basic vocabulary of definitions?  How can we teach or describe ANYTHING without common basic terms?

With more detailed knowlege comes more detailed classification.  In the beginning, pointing at an airplane and calling it an airplane may suffice.  But are all airplanes the same?  Is there any reason or value in differentiating between a jet, biplane, cessna, ultralight, fighter, bomber, glider, etc?  Or are they all the same?  Is an oak tree the same as a pine?  Is a $1 bill the same as a $100 bill?

Any other input?

MtnMan
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Offline Stang

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Can we classify styles / techniques?
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2007, 06:05:39 PM »
In a way, yes, but anyone who strictly flies by a certain style or another is very limited in what they can accomplish.  

To fly great one must apply all styles, or simply be devoid of style, reacting to each situation as deemed by his position vs the enemy's aircraft and constantly evaluating it as to know when to switch from one "style" to another to come out on top.

Offline 999000

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Can we classify styles / techniques?
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2007, 06:07:51 PM »
Stang not if you fly a B17!
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Offline Guppy35

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Can we classify styles / techniques?
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2007, 06:14:56 PM »
I prefer the jump in and die type of flying.

This involves taking off, flying lower then most, hoping they come down, shooting as many as possible and then getting mugged.

Wash-rinse-repeat :)

People above ya just can't resist that big old P38 target below them:aok
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Offline NoBaddy

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Can we classify styles / techniques?
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2007, 06:15:20 PM »
Ok, just diving in here....(someone may have already stated this)..

There are 2 basic fighting 'styles', angles fights and E fights. Usually, at some point, aspects of both styles will be used in the same fight.

In an angles fight, turn rate is used to attempt to gain position for a firing solution on your opponent. That being said, the Turn & Burn artist that doesn't consider his E state, relative to his opponent, may well get his bum shot off.

In an E fight, establishing and maintaining a superior E state to gain a firing position is the goal. The most commonly talked about tactic is Boom & Zoom. More often than not, this is 'Jousting'. If the jouster fails to hit with his head on passes, he will eventually blow his E ad and be forced to run, usually, because he lacks the skill set needed to force his opponent into an inferior position.

I much prefer the Rope-a-Dope (I do love ropin' Spit5's and Gurlicanes in a 109f or P40E). This is simply another facet of E fighting. Nothing sweeter than seeing a superior turning plane behind me at -400 yards as I spiral climb away. Then seeing him fall away, knowing that I have the E to go down, pop flaps and turn with him for the kill.

The above tactics are not the only the only ones. There are yoyo's, leads and lags, scissors, rolling scissors, hammerheads (fingers gettin' tired here!!!). In the end, anyone worth his salt will use facets of both schools of combat to win. One dimensional players usually don't have a long shelf life. :)
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Can we classify styles / techniques?
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2007, 06:32:12 PM »
Energy Fighting is basically using your superior energy to gain an angle on an enemy.

Angles Fighting (also known as "Turn Fighting") is what the name implies, using the maneuverability of your plane to achieve an angle on the enemy.  People often take the name literal and think that "Angles" fighting is just going around in Luftberrys until someone eventually gets a shot.

The best fighter pilots are those that are able to use both techniques together as the situation dictates.  Those that solely use one technique will always be at a disadvantage against those that can freely switch between the two during the course of an engagement.

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Offline crockett

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Can we classify styles / techniques?
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2007, 06:42:58 PM »
You forgot one..

RnH (Run and Ho's)  

This style of fighting is characterized by the typical dweeb pilot, that has little to no knowledge of any other form of ACM tactic sets. Instead their mastery of the dweebish skills tends to take the front seat, instead of actually learning proper ACM tactics.

The plane of choice is normally the LA7, they attempt their attack from a head on position, likely playing the Top Gun theme song in the background. If they come across a pilot with actual ACM skills they will likely miss their target as the maneuver is easily avoided in a 1 on 1 fight.  This tactic tends to end with the second plane chasing the RnH pilot as he runs for his life.

If the RnH pilots is well practiced he might live long enough to find friend or five, for  the ever so popular counter attack using the much favored Horde tactics. However if he can't find any friends and hasn't ran out of fuel he can sometimes be baited back in to a fight by using channel 200 for your advantage. Typically using "quit running like a girl LA7" or "I'm only in a Hurri 1 why are you running LALA?" will work.

These quick well thought out commits on channel 200, will almost always get the RnH pilots to turn around at which point the chance of them auguring has gone up dramatically. In fact, in many cases you can conserve your ammo as they are likely to collied with someone or the ground, whichever is closer.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2007, 06:47:30 PM by crockett »
"strafing"

Offline BluKitty

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Can we classify styles / techniques?
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2007, 07:00:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Stang
one must apply all styles, or simply be devoid of style, reacting to each situation as deemed by his position vs the enemy


In other words ... Kung Fu? Your so wise Stang :)  ...


I'd say energy fighting, in the way I define it, is 'kind' of the only style.   For BnZ you are aiming for positive energy.  With TnB you are aiming for negative, null, or positive energy depending on the situation, but each situation and action you plan calls for a different E state.  

The other 'style' of angles and position fighting depend on energy state.  There's also stalling, skidding, negative G moves, or what I'll call 'drunken stalling', where you intentionally stall,  rudder hard, into the rolls, with torque and cut in hard.  But I kind of consider that energy management too...Certain maneuvers are suited to certain levels of E, relative to your target.

So I don't think a good pilot has any 'style';
Someone playing with a 'style' is "very limited in what they can accomplish"(Stang LOL).

I've still got style tho ;)
« Last Edit: October 03, 2007, 07:03:11 PM by BluKitty »

Offline Citabria

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Can we classify styles / techniques?
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2007, 07:07:57 PM »
then there are the survivalists. the group on the far end of the spectrum from the turn shoot kill die crowd.

some find the rinse repeat kill/die cycle of most e fight or angles fighting mentalities predictable. generally the contest for either group is to see how many they can get before dying. nothing wrong with that as it provides cannon fodder for all concerned which is good. but the challenge of trying to fly the way the real aces flew with the preservation of your aircraft and a safe landing after getting many kills is the goal of the survivalist.

the survivalist is more interested in using situational awareness to calculate the success of any type of engagement be it angles or E fighting and then attacking with the sense that other enemies are in the area the fight with the one plane becomes a parallel goal to maintaining situational awareness of all airplanes in the area all the while moving into position on the plane currently targeted.

this is a different philosophy than the duelist has who prefers the challenge of 1v1 combat and is annoyed by interlopers.

the survivalist expects other enemy aircraft to be in the fight at the same time they are and maintains a mental picture of where the enemy cons are at all times. this is a philosophy of 1 vs many or many vs many. the challenge of this is is more analytical than the reflexive 1v1 skills most hope to perfect.

yet by succesfully predicting what will happen and where enemy planes will be in any engagment will reward the survivalist with good gunnery with a string of kills in just about any fight.

taking off, killing and getting away with it and getting home to land is the survivalist mantra.
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Offline Guppy35

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Can we classify styles / techniques?
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2007, 07:26:07 PM »
I'd suggest that the guys who get most out of the game use all the styles mentioned to some degree depending on situation.

If you up from a coastal base to defend it against a carrier fleet, it's going to be tough to fly energy fighting, BnZ or survivalist unless you let other folks hold the line while you climb away the other direction.  So someone is going to be furballing and turning and burning to buy you time.

If you take off from a further base with some squaddies you probably aren't going to want to die in the first few minutes of the fight and you are winging so you've got cover and you approach it differently.  You'll have that alt too which allows you to pick and choose a lot more then a guy who is on the deck fighting the guys from up high.

If you're in a 51 you'll fly it differently then a Spit  and so on and so forth.

I think too many folks get caught up in there being one way to play the game and there are many.

As long as you are having fun, it's the way it should be :)
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Offline Citabria

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Can we classify styles / techniques?
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2007, 07:48:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
...If you up from a coastal base to defend it against a carrier fleet, it's going to be tough to fly energy fighting, BnZ or survivalist unless you let other folks hold the line while you climb away the other direction.  So someone is going to be furballing and turning and burning to buy you time....


most of the furball or survivalist crowd has about 0 interest in holding or taking bases. and they also have about the same lack of interest in where the fight occurs be it in the enemy cv's ack umbrella thanks to those "buying time" or at a decent distance away from the horrid puffy ack that makes the game virtually unplayable above 3k. for either group the fight and the kills is pretty much the only point of interest. the toolshedding aspect of the game is the easiest for noobs to learn since most noobs cant figure out how to shoot moving targets in a 3d space anyway.

the real estate agents are the category of players that enjoy the base capture stuff. you will generally find this crowd interested not in the fight but the owenership of the base they are targetting.
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Offline NoBaddy

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Can we classify styles / techniques?
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2007, 08:24:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
If you're in a 51 you'll fly it differently then a Spit  and so on and so forth.



As long as you are having fun, it's the way it should be :)


Dan...

Guess that's my problem. I fly 'em all pretty much the same. But, in my defense, I'm a lazy bastage and trying to learn everything about any or all of the planes bores me to tears. COD!! Sometimes I do miss AWDOS when learning each plane was easy because there were so few. :)

Fun?? Yes sir!! If I wasn't having fun...I wouldn't be here. That's why I laff at the capture monkeys. I will be here having a good time looong after they get bored and move on to some other 'capture the flag' game. :D
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Offline SteveBailey

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Can we classify styles / techniques?
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2007, 08:34:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by crockett
You forgot one..

RnH (Run and Ho's)  

 


The correct term is  "HO and go"

storch

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Can we classify styles / techniques?
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2007, 08:54:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Energy Fighting is basically using your superior energy to gain an angle on an enemy.

Angles Fighting (also known as "Turn Fighting") is what the name implies, using the maneuverability of your plane to achieve an angle on the enemy.  People often take the name literal and think that "Angles" fighting is just going around in Luftberrys until someone eventually gets a shot.

The best fighter pilots are those that are able to use both techniques together as the situation dictates.  Those that solely use one technique will always be at a disadvantage against those that can freely switch between the two during the course of an engagement.

ack-ack
that pretty well nails it.  good post akak.

Offline toonces3

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« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2007, 09:15:04 PM »
I essentially posted a response to this in HighGturns' thread, so I won't repeat.

NoBaddy more or less summarized my post.

With respect to 'style' meaning a particular way of performing a maneuver, I do think that some of the better pilots on here exhibit a particular style of fighting.  I mean this in the same way that two folks can perform the same dance steps, but in a different unique way.

I mentioned Storch in particular, as he has a way of performing a lag pursuit that I think is quite distinctive.
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