P-38 Pilots

[Widewing]

Originally posted by SgtPappy
Guppy and his awesome screens.
Good shot!

Edit: Widewing, do you have a film of that 109G-14 encounter or any film that reflects it?
I would very much appreciate it if you could send one.

I didn't film engagement discussed. I have films where I'm flying the P-38 against other fighters. I do have a film of a duel against a 109K-4 while flying an F6F. If the F6F can hang with the 109K in the vertical, you can expect the P-38 to do likewise under the same circumstances. Here's that film.

My regards,

Widewing

[Rich46yo]

Lately Ive been running up against a lot of P-38 sticks who aren't attacking bombers correctly with it. They end up hanging up in their attacks, most of the time in the 6, or they come in from the side to low, forgetting some bombers turn very well, so I turn into them and get them  to hang up trying to straighten and line up their guns, once again hanging up to long.

                        I ran up against a Mossie yesterday, while I was droning along, and he slid into my 6 thinking I didn't know he was there. Oh I knew he was there ok, I was sitting in the tail gun waiting for him to creep in. I made a mistake and opened up to quickly assuming he was stupid for getting in my 6 in the first place. Boy, was I wrong, he grabbed air and came slashing down in that thing like a pro. I scored some hits, blew some shots, and just plain lost to a guy who outflew me. A heavy gunship, in the hands of a guy who knows how to really slash, is still a situation I have problems with.

                     Ive ran into a few guys who flew 38s like that but it seems to be happening less and less. I dont know if its more popular or what but its an awfully big target, with a few real structural weaknesses, to be hanging up against bomber guns. Especially since its a fine slasher to begin with.

                  I shoot for the wings on it if I cant get that forktail it has in back.

[clerick]

The biggest issue i have with buffs isn't structural deficiencies, but the flippen pilot wounds.  More often then i can count a single PW will knock me off of an attack.

[Fruda]

The P-38 is a very nice plane, one that I seem to do quite well in every time I fly it.

I usually get 3-6 kills per sortie, though I rarely land them... I'm usually too aggressive and end up with a trail of bogeys that eventually swallow me whole. That said, if you're not too aggressive and know what you're doing, you can easily dominate. It's one of those aircraft that can do virtually anything, and do it well.

Just make sure that you don't set your convergence too close or too far, and trust me, you'll need to set your convergence even though the guns are all on the nose. It makes a big difference in accuracy and punch.

[SgtPappy]

Thanks a lot for the film Widewing! Much appreciated.

Also, that was a great spiel, Toonces. Helps me understand a good amount more of the Teufel. However, the 'it's all of the above and it's in between' statement works for the Corsair too so watch out for the new Hog pilots learning how to fly as well heheh.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by SgtPappy
Thanks a lot for the film Widewing! Much appreciated.

When you watch that film, do so using the Chase position, fully zoomed in. First watch from the F6F and then from the 109K-4. You will notice that the F6F is flown with nary a jerk or bobble. On the other hand, the 109K is jerked about quite a bit. To limit wasted E, I fly with smooth inputs, even when using rudder to accelerate a roll. My inputs are often slow and deliberate.

Remember this: slow is smooth and smooth is fast.

I waste no E, and more often than not, the F6F is faster than the 109K while maneuvering, despite being about 50 mph slower on the initial merge. Practice rolling your aircraft to the precise angle you want. Even off the initial turn in, the F6F rolls smartly to the exact angle desired. It didn't roll too far, nor not enough. No correction was required. Precision inputs minimize drag. The transition to G load is smooth, which means the onset of induced drag is gradual. Jerking the plane in a series of inputs generates greater induced drag, slowing you down. I tell folks to fly "lazy". Never load the airframe more than you need to get position. Fly a lag pursuit, let the other guy work hard.

The guy in the 109K is not a noob, but one of the game's better pilots flying under a shade. I won't give up his ID as he asked me to keep it secret. Most players will run into him the MA and regret it at once. He was tuning up his 109 flying after a layoff. He did pretty darn good too. Give him a few weeks to get re-acclimated and comfortable with the controls and he'll be hell on wings.

My regards,

Widewing

[humble]

If you can see the horizon parallel to your plane, you're flying it wrong.

I'm not particularly well versed in the 38 but it seems to have alot of similarities to the A-20...to which the above quote applies in spades...anytime your flat your "losing"...

[SgtPappy]

I know what you mean WW.

Back in H2H when Jazz used to make us racing maps, I thought to myself 'getting these tracks done in the shortest amount of time would really improve how I manage energy' (since his best track IMO has zooms, spiral climbs, dives and turns and thin valleys in which one needs to roll in order to avoid crashing).

From then on, I've always tried to make my inputs as smooth as possible, but I've never been able to avoid the stall whine, and sometimes I still have that low speed, high AoA buffet.


Humble,
What did you mean by that post? I have a feeling I still need to tap into its wisdom.

[Rich46yo]

You can do some acrobatic things in the P-38. At least Ive seen them done. One move that is suicide tho against bombers is coming straight up from a slash, pirouetting  straight up until your completely vertical and bleed all E, and then diving down for your E for another slash...

                          If you do it to close to a bomber, I'd say within 1,000, the P-38 looks like a big fat turkey hanging there for about 2 seconds. And it dont look much better for the next 2 seconds while you start diving for E. I beat a very good stick when I was down to one bomber cause he made that one mistake. Its a very pretty ,impressive aerobatic maneuver but it is suicide if you do it to close to bombers. And the side/level attack aint much better cause if the bomber stick turns into the P-38 you'll get it to, if he gets greedy, hang up into your tailguns. Turn the 38 to hard and your going to hang up. And the best kinda turn for a bomber stick is the gradual turn into, that he doesnt really notice until he gets to close to react, and then turn hard into.

                       The 38 is a dangerous airplane but it is an E slasher against bombers to be effective.

[humble]

I dont really fly the 38 all that much but I've found that in the A-20 you never want to be "flat". Basically you live along the "X" and die on the "T". Basically the quote is that you never fly straight and level in a fight (and I add never fly "flat" to that)....

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Rich46yo
You can do some acrobatic things in the P-38. At least I've seen them done. One move that is suicide tho against bombers is coming straight up from a slash, pirouetting  straight up until your completely vertical and bleed all E, and then diving down for your E for another slash...

Depends on the speed and angle of the attacker.  This will work in any fighter and not just the P-38.

Attack the bomber formation from above.  Fly above the formation (I myself like to fly above it, slightly off the side of the formation at no less than d1.5 above) and target the manned bomber.  As you start to pass the formation, pull into a gentle climbing turn and then once your wing (the one into the turn) is pointing at the target, spiral down until your nose is pointing between the cockpit and the nose of the bomber.  This will put the attacking fighter at a steep enough of an angle that the top turrets can't get a proper lead and the attacker should see the tracers arc and then fall below him (indicator that you have the proper dive angle).  

Since the attacker is has its nose pointed between the cockpit and nose of the bomber, 95% of all rounds will hit in a vital area, usually resulting in a one pass kill.  The rounds will the majority of the times hit the cockpit area or the wing root (against B-24s, it's best to try and hit the cockpit area.  It seems most hits, unless with hit with solid cannon fire, will cause the wing to catch fire.  On all other buffs, hits to this area usually end in the wing coming off.)

After you've fired and scores hits, dive through the bomber formation and when out of gun range, pull into a shallow climb and extend until the + starts to show on the distance icon.  Pull into a lazy loop (if done correctly, you should be ahead of the bomber formation when doing this) that carries you d+1.5 above the bombers and slightly ahead of the formation.  When you come down from the loop, your position should be above the target bomber at the same angle you were in when you made the first attack.

Rinse, wash repeat for the remaining bombers.  If done correctly, the attacker should be unscathed or at the least with a hole or two from stray pings.  

And it should go without saying, YMMV.


ack-ack

[Rich46yo]

Outstanding post ack-ack. Exactly how I dont want a 38 stick to fly against me.  I think the size and construction of the P-38 gives it a deceiving look. Its actually a very versatile, manueverable, and capable aircraft. As far as WW-ll fighters go its my second favorite, just a little bitty notch below the P-51, and just a little bitty notch above the P-47.

                              Awww the heck with it. I love em all.

                             If your ever in the TA would you mind making some runs at me so I can practice up some against those angles? Thank you sir.

[CAP1]

Originally posted by AquaShrimp
The P-38 still has the P-factor to contend with.  Stall it in a dogfight, and you will see what I mean.  It will still depart flight and spin.  This is due to a number of factors, asymetric airflow, etc.

The P-38 does better at low to medium altitudes because of its low critical mach.  Above 450mph it will buffet and lock up.  The best way to fight in it would be to cruise at 10k, search for enemy aircraft below you.  Dive, fire, and climb back to altitude.

the stall/spin isn't due to pfactor in the 38......if you notice, it normally happens in a turn....in an uncoordinated turn....and you cannot tell us you make all coordinated turns in a fight......but in an uncoordinated turn, one wing is definitly slower than the other......so THAT wing will stall first.......and worse yet..if the plane departs flight, and you correct with aielrons, you drag that wing farther into the stall......thus causing the spin.......if you were i a coordinated turn, then a spin is impossible, although the stall will still occur..but when ya stall like that, correct with rudder......

i think that's pretty accurate.....

john

[Tac]

most low speed spins are caused by the fairy feature of the autoretracting flaps. Been so since AH1.

[Boxcut]

If you want to *really* learn to fly the P-38...

this thread is a GREAT place to start.

I felt bulky, slow, but still enthused with the P-38. I wasn't sure how to fight with it, etc. I was uninformed. So I hit the forums, and found this thread. I watched all the films, and committed one line to memory:

Out-run which out-turns you, and out-turn which out-runs you.

Oh how true this is.


My first p-38 flight on Mon night (well, first since my return. I played back in 02, and as you all know, AH is *not* like riding a bike), I was scored 0 kills. 0.


After reading this thread, I went up for 2 sorties last night. I scored 6 kills. 3 on each sortie. The first one however, I was too excited I was actually being productive (lol) I forgot about fuel and sputtered down. I ended up landing in a field and ditching, but not before spotting a flak shooting at me. And on my second sortie, one of my 3 kills was the flak lol. He was busy trying to vulch guys taking off. A few MG rounds tok care of that

IMHO, thats a HUGE improvement.

The only advice I can give to compliment the line above is:

Pick Your Fights!

As long as you are smart about your engagements, there is no reason not to score some kills. As long as *you* dictate your fights, then *you* have the advantage.