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Author Topic: Grass into gas  (Read 1139 times)

Offline AquaShrimp

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Grass into gas
« on: October 08, 2007, 08:30:26 AM »
Ethanol from cellulose http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/ncnu02/v5-017.html

Right now, ethanol (E85, and that Brazillian stuff) is produced only from the starch of plants, which is a relatively low percentage of the entire plant.  Starch is just a long chain of sugars.  Well cellulose is actually a long chain of sugars, glucose to be exact.  However, its the beta version of glucose (we eat the alpha version).  But cellulose can be broken apart into individual sugars through a number of ways, utilizing acid or living organisms.

Anyways, I think this is the solution to our fuel problems.  Right now the production efficiencies are pretty low, but with genetic engineering of microbes, and new technologies in acid reclamation, 95% conversion efficiencies are predicted.

Basically this is grass into gas.
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Offline indy007

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« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2007, 10:02:43 AM »
Not viable until the bacteria for the conversion process gets much, much cheaper :(
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Offline Maverick

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Grass into gas
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2007, 10:18:50 AM »
We had a nice presentation at a rally from a fuel producer that also provides bio diesel in Wichita. It got me interested to do a bit of research about availability of bio-diesel for commercial trucks or just at truck stops. I found exactly 2 Flying J truck stops that have it and they are both in Illinois. Loves doesn't list it at all. That covers the 2 largest truck stop chains for over the road trucks.

So far the availability of alcohol isn't much better other than as an additive. That includes ethanol from corn. So far as I can tell no one is mass producing the stuff from the grass source.  I hear about how wonderful it's supposed to be but if it's not being produced in quantity, it's all vaporware. Maybe voss is behind it.
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Offline rabbidrabbit

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Grass into gas
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2007, 10:20:28 AM »
It seems like a great way to drive up food prices.
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Offline Tiger

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Grass into gas
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2007, 11:12:57 AM »
They are supposed to be opening up a saw-grass 'ethanol' plant in SC in 2010.  

You've got to remember, the big money is just getting thrown at these technologies.  And due to the sheer size and infrastructure needed to for a processing plant, it will take 4 years to find a sutiable location with proper workforce and negotiate with that locality to get generous tax incentitves and whatnot to build.  The you have to build, then you have to hire people and train them.  These things aren't turnkey operations.  But now that big gov't money is being thrown around, expect to see ethanol plants popping up like weeds.
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Offline john9001

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Grass into gas
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2007, 11:26:49 AM »
does this mean the price of grass is going to go up?
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Offline Angus

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Grass into gas
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2007, 12:01:16 PM »
There are many small tricks being used today, i.e. in Europe for self-manufactured fuel.
One is agricultural rapeseeed oil. On good land you may have up to 1200 litres pr ha, and it can be processed on the farm and used straight for diesel engines. The sideproduct is actually the mainproduct, - rapeseed for cattle food.
Oddly enough, at least in Germany AFAIK, it has now been taxed, so it does not show up on the common market. However it is being used within agriculture.
AFAIK rapeseed oil is a much more efficient than i.e. growing corn to make methanol/ethanol. Not sure why it is not more applied, but I have read that there are big areas in the mid-west of the USA for instance where it will not grow any more due to herbicide issues. (what cleans corn will kille food-rape).
Not sure there though, so take it with a grain of salt. Definately many other factors involved.
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Offline mora

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Grass into gas
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2007, 12:22:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
There are many small tricks being used today, i.e. in Europe for self-manufactured fuel.
One is agricultural rapeseeed oil. On good land you may have up to 1200 litres pr ha, and it can be processed on the farm and used straight for diesel engines. The sideproduct is actually the mainproduct, - rapeseed for cattle food.
Oddly enough, at least in Germany AFAIK, it has now been taxed, so it does not show up on the common market. However it is being used within agriculture.
AFAIK rapeseed oil is a much more efficient than i.e. growing corn to make methanol/ethanol. Not sure why it is not more applied, but I have read that there are big areas in the mid-west of the USA for instance where it will not grow any more due to herbicide issues. (what cleans corn will kille food-rape).
Not sure there though, so take it with a grain of salt. Definately many other factors involved.

Very true. It's not utilized in the US because diesel marketshare is so low. This is because their laws and taxes favor gasoline over diesel.
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Offline JBA

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Grass into gas
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2007, 12:52:46 PM »
If you are a BOATER be careful about this crap fuel. It's wrecking boat fuel tanks and engines left and right.



 
“Ethanol is a fabulous solvent,” says Schultz. “I used it to clean tree sap off my car.” It also dissolves accumulated deposits in the fuel-supply system, and those could end up in a fuel filter. Also, Schultz points out, gasoline and ethanol are an unhappy marriage. They simply don't mix together. But ethanol loves water and willingly sucks up moisture. This isn't a big problem in the sealed fuel system of a modern car, but most boats have an open-vented fuel tank that breathes as the ambient temperature rises and falls-especially during the cool evenings and warmer days of spring and fall-and introduces humid air to the fuel tank. This can create the formation of strong organic acids as water combines with ethanol and other elements in the fuel, forming sludge and corrosive compounds.
 
 


http://www.boatingmag.com/article.asp?article_id=691§ion_id=3
« Last Edit: October 08, 2007, 12:58:10 PM by JBA »
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Offline rpm

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Grass into gas
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2007, 01:00:37 PM »
Find any thread about biofuels and you'll find a post from me about using switchgrass and a post from Lazs calling me an idiot. Has something changed?
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Offline Ripsnort

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Grass into gas
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2007, 01:31:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by rpm
Find any thread about biofuels and you'll find a post from me about using switchgrass and a post from Lazs calling me an idiot. Has something changed?
Yes, you're an older idiot than before.


































:D
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Offline rpm

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« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2007, 01:33:08 PM »
That is a 2 way street amigo.;)
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Offline rpm

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« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2007, 01:40:25 PM »
Seriously, tho. Bush called for this 2 years ago in his SOTU. Too bad Archer/Daniels/Midland doesn't turn a tidy profit off switchgrass.

Anybody that does'nt believe biofuels are feasable should look at Brazil.
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Offline AirFlyer

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Grass into gas
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2007, 02:03:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by rpm
Seriously, tho. Bush called for this 2 years ago in his SOTU. Too bad Archer/Daniels/Midland doesn't turn a tidy profit off switchgrass.

Anybody that does'nt believe biofuels are feasable should look at Brazil.


If I remember correctly, Switch blade grass puts out 8x the fuel that is needed to make it. Sugar cane(which is what Brazil is useing) is about 6x effective. And corn is 2x. It's very possible to start makeing large amounts of fuel from these sources, people just need to invest a little money on developing cheaper ways of doing it.
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Offline Ripsnort

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Grass into gas
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2007, 02:08:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AirFlyer
If I remember correctly, Switch blade grass puts out 8x the fuel that is needed to make it. Sugar cane(which is what Brazil is useing) is about 6x effective. And corn is 2x. It's very possible to start makeing large amounts of fuel from these sources, people just need to invest a little money on developing cheaper ways of doing it.


Whatever it takes to get off of ME oil and make their Kings "3rd world status" again, I'm all for it! :aok
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