P-51D vs 109 [not a thread for complaints please ;)]

[Dutchie]

So i'll never fear a slow-speed turn fight with a K4 in the mustang, cause i know the pilot is likely not very experienced.

I'll do a low speed (stall fight) in K4 against a P51 any day, I'll even flat turn it if it comes to that

I don't think you can compare real WWII pilot/plane performance with AH. We can push (and do so allot) the planes to their flight model envelopes in AH without any serious penalties. If we "die" we tower out and re-plane, the worst thing happening may be a bruised ego or bad score, but that's about it. Constantly pushing a plane to its envelope in real life can be very bad for once health.

The main reason for the k4 being able to beat the P51 is its stability and relative smooth handling at stall speed IMHO.

[Mus51]

Originally posted by Dutchie
I'll do a low speed (stall fight) in K4 against a P51 any day, I'll even flat turn it if it comes to that

I don't think you can compare real WWII pilot/plane performance with AH. We can push (and do so allot) the planes to their flight model envelopes in AH without any serious penalties. If we "die" we tower out and re-plane, the worst thing happening may be a bruised ego or bad score, but that's about it. Constantly pushing a plane to its envelope in real life can be very bad for once health.

The main reason for the k4 being able to beat the P51 is its stability and relative smooth handling at stall speed IMHO.

Oh thats great lol, that makes me fear 109K4's even more! lol

[Dutchie]

I recognise a good 109 pilot by him slowing down and make you overshoot and try to get a snapshot in with 30mm. I recognise them by their willingness to make you slow down even more and get you to commit to a stall fight.  I recognise them by their ability of planting a 30mm into an enemy plane at any angle and speed.

An advantage of the 109k4 is that it is lethal in a snapshot (which you will end up having to resort to in stall fights most of the time). 30mm does much more damage in a snapshot then a few .50's. .50's are lethal in concentrated burts in one spot, but that's almost impossible to achieve in a snapshot.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by bozon
P-51s seem to enjoy the best PR of any other WWII fighter regardless of what it did or was capable of. Of the American planes in PR / achievements disparity, it is closely followed by the F4U.

Indeed, especially when it was the P-47 that really crushed the Luftwaffe and the F6F utterly destroyed Japanese air power, killing more Japanese aircraft than the P-38, P-51, P-47 and F4U combined.

My regards,

Widewing

[bj229r]

IMO, a REAL good K4 stick will own ANYthing piloted by ANYone at ANY alt:aok

[Widewing]

Originally posted by bj229r
IMO, a REAL good K4 stick will own ANYthing piloted by ANYone at ANY alt:aok

Not really. I'll take the La-7 over the 109K-4 below 8k, and the P-47 (any one of them) above 25k. I'll take the F4U-4 over the 109K at any altitude. Ditto for the Spit14. I'm quite comfortable fighting 109Ks with an F6F or Ki-84. Now, some guys are thinking, "The F6F hasn't a chance against a 109K-4." Think again....

You guys should know by now that I'm doing my Trainer thing in the TA Tuesday thru Thursday evenings. Bring those 109Ks and try your luck. I've had some great fun dueling with Dedalos, Skyrock, Nomak, Stang, wmaker, Urchin, my buddy Murdr and a dozen other top sticks in the TA. Dissimilar aircraft duels are always the most entertaining and insightful. So, you 109K-4 advocates are welcome to stop in and give it a go. You'll have fun and learn a few things about different fighters that you never realized previously.

The Trainers will be doing more 3v1 clinics in November. Don't miss these...

My regards,

Widewing

[Dutchie]

Bring those 109Ks and try your luck

Happy to try my "luck" against your la7 but not in the TA (boring not being able to kill something), I'll do it in the DA

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Dutchie
Happy to try my "luck" against your la7 but not in the TA (boring not being able to kill something), I'll do it in the DA

Dedalos originally thought that, but changed his mind after flying several grueling 20 minute fights. The TA is a much greater challenge, because you must fight until your gas or ammo is exhausted, or unless you auger. If you can do well in these fights, the DA is a cakewalk.

Stop in, I promise you that you'll be anything but bored.

Besides, those are the only hours during the week that I can dedicate to flying and those hours are committed to the Training Arena. I've managed just 5 hours in the MA in October... Very busy life here these days...

My regards,

Widewing

[Dutchie]

Originally posted by Widewing
Dedalos originally thought that, but changed his mind after flying several grueling 20 minute fights. The TA is a much greater challenge, because you must fight until your gas or ammo is exhausted, or unless you auger. If you can do well in these fights, the DA is a cakewalk.

Stop in, I promise you that you'll be anything but bored.

Besides, those are the only hours during the week that I can dedicate to flying and those hours are committed to the Training Arena. I've managed just 5 hours in the MA in October... Very busy life here these days...

My regards,

Widewing

No offense WW, I know what the TA is about, been there plenty in the past and in DGS trials we did prior the frame 1.

Point is, TA endless swirling around each other without hits doing any dmg isn't realistic to MA or DA encounters IMHO. Many plp setup for the second or third or even fourth rev to get the bullets in the enemy plane, a 30mm hit is deadly then and the fight is over then in the MA or DA.

I'm not impressed with high alt performance of any P47 relative to K4 at 25k+. Done some trials with plp at that alt in prep of DGS and had no props killing the p47's. The P38 at that alt, now that's a different story

If there are some planes to be careful against while flying the K4, I say it would be the f4u's (1A and 4).

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Dutchie
No offense WW, I know what the TA is about, been there plenty in the past and in DGS trials we did prior the frame 1.

Point is, TA endless swirling around each other without hits doing any dmg isn't realistic to MA or DA encounters IMHO. Many plp setup for the second or third or even fourth rev to get the bullets in the enemy plane, a 30mm hit is deadly then and the fight is over then in the MA or DA.

I'm not impressed with high alt performance of any P47 relative to K4 at 25k+. Done some trials with plp at that alt in prep of DGS and had no props killing the p47's. The P38 at that alt, now that's a different story

If there are some planes to be careful against while flying the K4, I say it would be the f4u's (1A and 4).

Dutchie, the problem with the DA is that you cannot isolate the plane's capability from the pilot's ability. Fights are too short, as one mistake ends the comparison. If you wish to measure performance, you need to do it over the course of an extended fight. The TA is simply the best location for that. You'll know if you score solid hits, and know if you've been hit. It isn't about who is the better stick, it's about determining which is the better fighter.

Now, a comment on comparative performance.

Acceleration is equal until about 200 mph, where the La-7 surges ahead. Speed easily goes to the La-7. Roll rate goes to the La-7 too, having much better ailerons than the 109K. Climb goes to the 109K, but only by a small margin, utterly insignificant in a fight. Turn radius is no contest as the La-7 wins big in turn radius and turn rate as well. Equal pilots, at low level, the La-7 should win. Up at 20k, right in the 109K's wheelhouse, the 109K should win.

My regards,

Widewing

[Mus51]

i still fear 109K's when i see them up...

[Dutchie]

Turn radius is no contest as the La-7 wins big in turn radius and turn rate as well. Equal pilots, at low level, the La-7 should win.

I never see this in the MA, I have no problems killing La7's in there, dispite the fact that the plane is flown more than the K4 in there and that there should be better La7 pilots purely by experience alone.

[KONG1]

Originally posted by Dutchie
I never see this in the MA, I have no problems killing La7's in there, dispite the fact that the plane is flown more than the K4 in there and that there should be better La7 pilots purely by experience alone.

Most LA7 pilots don't know how to get off the gas.

[Lusche]

Originally posted by Dutchie
I never see this in the MA, I have no problems killing La7's in there, dispite the fact that the plane is flown more than the K4 in there and that there should be better La7 pilots purely by experience alone.

There are very few experienced La 7 pilots. Most people fly that thing rather early in their AH career, then moving on to other planes as time goes by.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Dutchie
I never see this in the MA, I have no problems killing La7's in there, dispite the fact that the plane is flown more than the K4 in there and that there should be better La7 pilots purely by experience alone.

Ever duel 2bighorn's La-7? I've dueled him to a virtual draw with the 109G-2, because it can just about maneuver with the La-7. The 109K-4 cannot... No even close. Too heavy, too much torque.

My regards,

Widewing