Author Topic: Please comment: acm and gunnery  (Read 2088 times)

Offline humble

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Please comment: acm and gunnery
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2007, 12:14:03 PM »
Murdr...

I dont disagree with you at all on that one, sometimes its the only shot your going to get. But if you get your nose out infront and then "freeze" it you've got little chance to score enough to get a kill. If you've got a lag position and you need to bury the target to pull lead thats a bit different then transitioning to lead early then waiting on the shot.

My thoughts to sim's question is that his issue really is in the "pre-shot" and not the shot itself....he's just not putting himself in decent positions IMO.

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Offline Murdr

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Please comment: acm and gunnery
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2007, 12:25:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by humble
My thoughts to sim's question is that his issue really is in the "pre-shot" and not the shot itself....he's just not putting himself in decent positions IMO.
Agreed

Offline CAP1

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« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2007, 04:40:29 PM »
ok..in the first film......i'm not to much on gunnery, and didnt see any tracers, so i can't offer any advice on lead......but..........i'm thinking that in a fragile plane like the zeke, i'd have stayed high, as i saw quite a few cherry pickers in there....and they'd have been yours for the having when they came back up from their runs......but also, when i do get into situations like tht, most of my shots are quick shots as someon happens to fly through my sights.....or ones i set up like that.....i never stay on a single target too long..like more than a couple seconds, as that makes me easy kill(well....easier than normal).....

in the second film, you lasted longer than i would've.....but one thing i noticed, was on the initial merge with the pony.....you gave yourself a bit of an alt advantage..but then you went dowwn after him......i think ya might've done better to keep that alt and let him come back to you. his buddy in the fw flew a much smarter fight, as he was staying up high, waiting for you to make a mistake.....then it was about 2 minutes in, you did what looked like a right break-turn, and rolled out left.....the only thing with that move was that the bogie was far enough behind you that he was able to just climb and watch ya......i let them to less than 600 before rolling out.....that helps me be a bit more sure they're pullig way too hard to get a lead to either see me roll, or to follow me through it..or to do what he did and climb watch then dive back to ya.....then just after that, the fw dropped in to visit, and got a few rounds in ya.....and for some reason you followed him, when it looked like the pony might've been at a bit of a disadvantage,,,but following the fw gave the pony the fight....the only other thing, i'm not sure about......but isn't the corsair a good slow speed fighter? would you have fared better if you'd have  lured them both into a low speed knife fight? it didn't seem as though you were gonnsa seperate them, as they were working together well.....but if you could've slowed them both down..........
none of this is meant as critisism, as i really am NOT that good....so thesse are kind of observsations AND questions.......


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Offline Dutchie

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Please comment: acm and gunnery
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2007, 04:59:16 PM »
On the first film, you gunnery is not far off, you get mg hit sprites but not from the cannon, i think you need to adjust convergence setting for the cannon. What surprises me is that your SA is totally fubar. You are very fixated (view wise) on one enemy and don't pay any attention to the P51 making several passes at you (I viewed the films with the "use recorded views box checked)

Second film, you lost too much E on 3 spit S maneuvers in the beginning. Apart from the fact that both you and the P51 went for the HO on the first pass, the P51 dove down after the pass, you split S to him while the 190 is coming in high. You could have kept alt (going verticle) and point yourself towards the 190 to fight him first while the p51 was still low (again poor SA to split S towards the P51 down with a 190 coming in high and when you see the 190 coming split S again towards him while the P51 is climbing up).
Then on the chase of the P51 and 190 on you, by that time you know they will catch up on you, I would have fought it very aggressive from that point on, trying to make them overshoot and setup for a snapshot while they overshoot. I don't see that in your flying. First of you are evading the P51 but not rolling into his overshoot to get a shot in. Secondly your not paying attention to where the 190 is, you are to fixated with one con (at least I don't see you look back in the film). It was just a matter of time to get shot down.

Basically you need to work on SA and make maneuver choices accordingly.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2007, 05:02:02 PM by Dutchie »

Offline The Fugitive

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Please comment: acm and gunnery
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2007, 06:35:49 PM »
Snap! don't you fly anything other than that A20 ???? :D

 Thanks Snap, I understand what your saying.  Thanks again for the films, keep them coming!

Sim, not that my opinion really carries a lot of weight, but these are my comments on your films....

1. I agree that you were very fixated on your target. In those fights with the number of enemies around you should have spent more time checking the other than watching the one you were after. Snap says "Have a plan when you go into a fight" The trick is knowing when to dump plan A and switch to plan B. In a target rich area like you were in, chasing a bad situation to the exclution of all others isn't going to help.

2. You were too worried about "defending". I'd have made a pass or two to get them both in the same quadrant (Murdr's trick) they were both hungry enough to push for the fight. Once you got the both close to passing you giving you an "out", dive for the deck. Once they dive in, you have options...chop the throttle for the over shoot, keep the fight fast and low, anything but run. In the end they were going to catch you, fight them on YOUR terms, not what they try to force you into, make a plan and execute it !

Offline Widewing

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Please comment: acm and gunnery
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2007, 08:04:23 PM »
Simaril, next month we are having two training clinics on engaging multiple enemies. We've run these before and they go a long way to improving your SA, learning to judge E states and help you to develop the skills required to determine which enemy is the greatest threat. Most of Saxman's squad, as well at many of the 332nd Flying Mongrels have attended. Everyone improved, some dramatically so. Check the Trainer's calender for the dates and times.

First fight, You didn't have a good idea where the enemy fighters were, and as several mentioned, you were excessively focused on the P-51 that collided with you. Focus on the primary threat, deal with that and move on to the next threat. Winning a 3 on 1 begins with understanding which aircraft must be shot down first, or at least discouraged enough to break off. To kill all three, you have to kill one first. In most fights with two or enemies, the primary threat will frequently change. You need to be able to identify this and counter.

You performed a series of loops while the F4U was barreling in unseen, your flight path now completely predictable. Change angles, never be predictable. Know where everyone is, and recognize their E state.

You also snap-stalled the Zero, giving away a chance at the Mustang. Be smooth on stick input. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast. This takes practice. That's why the clinics are so beneficial.

Second fight... You must be more aggressive. What you needed to do was equalize E states. Initially, you were 1,000 feet higher than the P-51.  Moreover, you should have reversed into the P-51 much earlier (before the film started), trading that 1,000 feet for some additional speed (use WEP more, by the way). When you did reverse, you did so in a split-S with power pulled off. You gained little speed for the loss of altitude. That means you have NOT equalized E states as the E state is a combination of kinetic and potential energy. You increased kinetic energy only slightly at the expense of potential energy. E states remained unbalanced.

SA and E-management are the keys to defeating the BnZ, even with multiple bad guys.

Simaril, PM me and I'll send you links to several films with a couple of fellows who were working on wingman tactics. I was the rabbit, so to speak. You will notice that that when fighting two guys at once, you have to develop a sense of timing, recognizing when the threat changes. You may also notice that radical maneuvers are often not required. Doing no more than taking away an angle is often sufficient. Diving under the other guy's nose is often a great way to spoil what appeared to be a good opportunity. Watch from the fixed view with trails on. Use the sliders to change view angles.  

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

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Offline mtnman

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Please comment: acm and gunnery
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2007, 08:25:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Murdr
Personally I would be hesitant to dissuade someone from practicing shooting on the blind.  I kill too many planes with an empty windscreen and the only feedback on the quality of the shot being a victory message.  It's not the prefered gun solution, but don't pass on the opportunity when there's no risk of overshooting afterwards.


I'd agree with you here Murdr.  Especially from a standpoint of "How do I survive / win more fights?" type question.  Having the ability to hit those shots can be very important.  Sometimes, especially when fighting multiple planes, hitting those blind shots can be a make or break situation.  Practicing those shots is obviously the only way you'll improve on them.

From a standpoint of "how do I improve my gunnery?", or "How do I get my leads down better?" however, I would still recommend keeping a better view of your target, and minimizing the amount of time the target is in a blind spot.  This type of question leads to improving your strategy for consistantly hitting your target.  While hitting targets you can't see is possible, it isn't exactly a consistant method.


It does come down to a recommendation to position yourself better for a better shot.  Being in a better position to make the shot, and being able to see the target in order to set up a proper lead will lend itself to more hits.  Also, being in a better position often allows you to put a significant amount of hits on a target, rather than hoping for a lucky "golden BB" on a snapshot.

MtnMan
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Offline CAP1

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Please comment: acm and gunnery
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2007, 08:33:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
Simaril, next month we are having two training clinics on engaging multiple enemies. We've run these before and they go a long way to improving your SA, learning to judge E states and help you to develop the skills required to determine which enemy is the greatest threat. Most of Saxman's squad, as well at many of the 332nd Flying Mongrels have attended. Everyone improved, some dramatically so. Check the Trainer's calender for the dates and times.

First fight, You didn't have a good idea where the enemy fighters were, and as several mentioned, you were excessively focused on the P-51 that collided with you. Focus on the primary threat, deal with that and move on to the next threat. Winning a 3 on 1 begins with understanding which aircraft must be shot down first, or at least discouraged enough to break off. To kill all three, you have to kill one first. In most fights with two or enemies, the primary threat will frequently change. You need to be able to identify this and counter.

You performed a series of loops while the F4U was barreling in unseen, your flight path now completely predictable. Change angles, never be predictable. Know where everyone is, and recognize their E state.

You also snap-stalled the Zero, giving away a chance at the Mustang. Be smooth on stick input. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast. This takes practice. That's why the clinics are so beneficial.

Second fight... You must be more aggressive. What you needed to do was equalize E states. Initially, you were 1,000 feet higher than the P-51.  Moreover, you should have reversed into the P-51 much earlier (before the film started), trading that 1,000 feet for some additional speed (use WEP more, by the way). When you did reverse, you did so in a split-S with power pulled off. You gained little speed for the loss of altitude. That means you have NOT equalized E states as the E state is a combination of kinetic and potential energy. You increased kinetic energy only slightly at the expense of potential energy. E states remained unbalanced.

SA and E-management are the keys to defeating the BnZ, even with multiple bad guys.

Simaril, PM me and I'll send you links to several films with a couple of fellows who were working on wingman tactics. I was the rabbit, so to speak. You will notice that that when fighting two guys at once, you have to develop a sense of timing, recognizing when the threat changes. You may also notice that radical maneuvers are often not required. Doing no more than taking away an angle is often sufficient. Diving under the other guy's nose is often a great way to spoil what appeared to be a good opportunity. Watch from the fixed view with trails on. Use the sliders to change view angles.  

My regards,

Widewing


widewing......may i ask t requests of you? first off, i've been away for a month or so, so am very rusty..considering i'm not too good to begin with..but first is..could those clinics be any night except tuesday or thursday? 2nd, is could you possibly post those links here sir?

thanks!!!!

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S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning in a Bottle)

Offline Widewing

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Please comment: acm and gunnery
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2007, 08:52:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by CAP1
widewing......may i ask t requests of you? first off, i've been away for a month or so, so am very rusty..considering i'm not too good to begin with..but first is..could those clinics be any night except tuesday or thursday? 2nd, is could you possibly post those links here sir?

thanks!!!!

<>
john


John, the second clinic is on a Friday evening (11/16/07) at 9 PM eastern. We meet at field A100, vox is 104. You are also welcome to drop in the TA on Wednesday evenings. I'm usually there by 9 PM, and Ren is there till about 8 PM. Murdr is also likely to be there as well.

I'll PM you the links...

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

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Offline Simaril

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Please comment: acm and gunnery
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2007, 10:10:54 PM »
So to summarize -- and to confirm that I'm getting what you folks are saying.


  • I need to pay way more attention to 360 SA
  • I need to maneuver to get myself out of plane so I can track and shoot
  • I need to change angles even when planning similar maneuvers
  • I need to be thinking "position for the shot" at least as much as "line up the shot"


Does that cover things well?
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Offline TequilaChaser

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Please comment: acm and gunnery
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2007, 10:17:54 PM »
Sim,
you are a good stick, sometimes in reading your post/replys I tend to think you read too much into what is being suggested to you, when it is alot simpler than the way you are taking this information in........

relax, read a little, practice and evaluate it.....

I will make time to hook up with you!!!

you got my email address
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Offline Simaril

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« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2007, 10:54:08 PM »


Yeah, I have a tendency to overanalyze stuff. Seems natural to me, but now that my 18 year old daughter does it too I can see how annoying it can be!!
Maturity is knowing that I've been an idiot in the past.
Wisdom is realizing I will be an idiot in the future.
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Offline Dichotomy

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« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2007, 11:09:01 PM »
You are far from annoying bro.  You're one of the most patient, friendly, and easy to get along with, people I know.
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Offline TequilaChaser

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Please comment: acm and gunnery
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2007, 11:16:59 PM »
Sim,
I never said you was annoying

it just seems like you think about the discussion to deeply, as you said you "have a tendency to overanalyze stuff"

this in itself can become discouraging when trying to figure things out......

shoot me an email with some times this week we can hook up in the TA, anytime after 7pm EST/EDT.....
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline CAP1

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« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2007, 11:22:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
John, the second clinic is on a Friday evening (11/16/07) at 9 PM eastern. We meet at field A100, vox is 104. You are also welcome to drop in the TA on Wednesday evenings. I'm usually there by 9 PM, and Ren is there till about 8 PM. Murdr is also likely to be there as well.

I'll PM you the links...

My regards,

Widewing

thank ya sir!!!!
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