Author Topic: Please comment: acm and gunnery  (Read 2006 times)

Offline humble

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Please comment: acm and gunnery
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2007, 10:33:40 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Simaril
So to summarize -- and to confirm that I'm getting what you folks are saying.


  • I need to pay way more attention to 360 SA
  • I need to maneuver to get myself out of plane so I can track and shoot
  • I need to change angles even when planning similar maneuvers
  • I need to be thinking "position for the shot" at least as much as "line up the shot"


Does that cover things well? [/B]


As already mentioned dont get overly analytical about it all. Simply being "aware" of some of these items will help over time. I also think we need to define your "check list" a bit.

Situational Awareness is a term I think different folks use to mean different things. To me "SA" has strong tactical implications...it starts with the "big picture" but then focuses on the intermediate (those cons in the 3.0 range) and then further to my immediate "target" focus. I view "target SA" as the single biggest element of ACM. Once I initiate ACM vs a particular plane with the intent of either evading or attacking I want him "locked in" view wise till I switch off him or die or nuetralize his threat. To me 10% of SA is "big picture" 20% is "head on a swivel" and 70% is true awarness of your "targets" speed, attitude & lift vector.

"Out of Plane" manuevering isn't something you force. It's a by product of good ACM. In Most fights your out of plane more then your in plane. Any time you execute a high or low yoyo vs a con your "out of plane". I hapened to be in the TA a few weeks ago and Bat & clerick were working with WWM. I jumped in and lent what perspective I could. Most of which was playing "target" in an A-20 while WWM was in a 109F. I tried to show him that by focusing on his lift vector and keeping mine either 45 or 90 degree's off I could evade (and often "reverse" him) with some regularity.

If you look at the clip with frenchy I posted here you can see the concept of "managing your lift vector" at work.
You can see me trying to hold my lift vector at roughly 45 degree's of lag. Then I'm off the gas...in effect maitaining lag and avoiding an overshoot and then rotating my lift vector thru him to lead...

Now look at frenchies reverse to me. Try and look at the inverted Twith his wings as the base and cockpit "up" view as his lift vector (not technically correct but close. At 41 sec (time of chk 6's) what I'm looking at is that he's a bit "flat"...his lift vector is actually right on me (which means he cant hit me) on that line)...notice I try and keep his lift vector right on me...in effect his plane has to fly that track around me (I'm inside his "arc") as he corrects and pulls for the shot all I do is roll my lift vector and then rinse and repeat the initial move. Now after missing the shot I'm defensive...I have no way to avoid getting caught in a fight I cant win IF I continue the rolling scissors.....so I defend the reverse and deny the continued scissors...to me this is "target SA". He then elects to scoot with the other cons coming in play and in the end successfully RTB's...

So I'd say "manuever correctly" and you'll create good shot windows

I'm not sure what you mean by #3...do you mean similiar to the other guy?

If so I think thats dead wrong. In an MA enviornment almost nothing is ever "even". Plane type, fuel load, starting alt speed etc all vary...so the "right" move for each plane is different. If two cons are both trying to make the "same or similiar" move then one of them is wrong.

I dont agree with the wording on #4 at all either. Tactics are based on situation. Sound tactics generate good shot windows (even in a defensive losing fight). Looking at the jug clip I didnt try for the initial shot...I actually converted to lag and "sat" on his climbing reverse. Had he elected to split S I'd have had no shot...but had I taken a more aggresive line he'd have "rolled" my lift vector and eviserated my A-20. Had I tried to go "angles" he'd have got me on the 2nd pass or avoided my shot and I'd have been left for toast in the end.

So by flying a tactically correct {to the best of my ability} fight I took and converted (to some degree) both shots that those tactics generated. I didnt chase either shot but transitioned back to lag and kept my "tactical SA" up and elected to extend as soon as I felt that no further advantage existed.

If I was thinking "shot" I'd have died and been @#$% over a fight I "should have" won. The reality is Frenchy flew an aggresive fight against a plane that he probably has relatively little "feel" for and therefor took a more aggresive line then he would next time. He finally got me out front and then disengaged as soon as he saw me trundling away. Even if the other planes hadnt been there no way I'm chasing a good jug driver down. I'll take my "tactical victory" and mossy along vs letting him reload and then reverse me...

Sim, I'd spend a month or two with TC, WW and murdr focusing on the fundementals of E fighting (both + and -)...thats the base on which you can build and expand to achive what you want.

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Offline Simaril

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Please comment: acm and gunnery
« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2007, 04:14:34 PM »
:lol

Sorry guys - meant my DAUGHTER is annoying when she goes into analysis mode, as it can last an entire car trip and is entirely done out loud. On one hand, it's grea that she's willing to talk to us about what's on her mind, so we can't shush her. But, on the other hand, sometimes it makes my ears bleed....



Don't worry, I'm not slamming on myself, just acknowledging that I can overanalyze things -- and failing at trying to joke about it!
Maturity is knowing that I've been an idiot in the past.
Wisdom is realizing I will be an idiot in the future.
Common sense is trying to not be an idiot right now

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Offline goober69

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Please comment: acm and gunnery
« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2007, 05:11:19 PM »
i wouldnt say i over analyze but i do find i sort of talk my way through a fight.
so im setting at 15k flying around by myself.
 i see a con i talk to myself about that con, maybe i say hes lower than me or maybe i just giggle and dive like a maniac.

really i try to talk myself through a threat asesment, but that usualy gets forgoten with more than 3 cons around.

1.who is the most dangerous to you at the moment?
2.what is the general e state of enemys?
3.how am i on energy as compared to other cons?
4.should i get involved?
5.who is blowing e
3. can i get there and kill them b4 ther buddies get me?
6.i kill the guy then what?
7. can i get away and rebuild e?

thats some of my out loud though proceses.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2007, 05:13:37 PM by goober69 »
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Offline thrila

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Please comment: acm and gunnery
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2007, 05:57:03 PM »
Sim i sympathise my aim has been pretty poor most of the week, it's beginning to really annoy me.  I seem to be making or atleast what i think are snapshot opportunities but seem to be missing them most of the time.  Since ive returned from my 2 year hiatus things don't seem to be as naturally as they used to.  i've mainly been furballing to try and get the feel back (the pedals have been a nightmare, i still sometimes apply the wrong pedal).  

Ok here's a film to show you guys what i mean.  I created a few opportunities but didnt land any significant hits.  Looking at the film already i should have just stayed kept my alt after the merge at about 20 secs and watched what he did.  There are several times where i could have disengaged i know but i'm really just trying to get some quality stick time.

Any comments are welcomed
film
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Offline humble

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Please comment: acm and gunnery
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2007, 07:42:14 PM »
Ffrom my view a bit of rust is all. You had him cold a few times and just missed....in a fight like that where you came off the gas repeatedly your simply creating the reality that missing is a bad thing:).

Now from a "style" perspective I'd have flown alot of the fight differently. But that doesnt make one way right and another wrong. I'de have kept my nose under and flown an "E opener" not gone up and thru. To me he flew a noob merge but thats just my opinion...After you chased around I'd have gone vertical as he went down...I think you played into his bad opener a bit much...

From your extension I'd have spiral climbed him and stomped on his head...on your reverse your in plane at the time of his shot...again I'd avoid and climb not cut the gas and go angles...When you then go to a two circle fight i'd have been in a rolling scissors....again he's attacking you top down for the 3rd time...

All that being said you set him up nicely multiple times....in the end you win that fight in a walk once your gunnery is back...

*** at edit***

2 other things after thinking on it for a bit...

a) I didnt see any horizontal seperation...you didnt really create a good merge....

which leads me to #2

b) seperate from "Style" I think you were in plane a lot. Not something I'd do with that plane match up in a vertical looping type fight. To me with the way he flew I'd have looked to convert one of those nose down attacks into a climbing rolling scissors...
« Last Edit: October 23, 2007, 07:52:19 PM by humble »

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Offline HighGTrn

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Please comment: acm and gunnery
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2007, 03:58:54 AM »
I've been following this thread closely and spending time trying to put the advice (which has all been good) into practice via lots of practice.

I must attest that this thread has been so helpful.  I've noticed a definate improvement in the last couple of days.  My biggest problem is gunnery since I'm a horrible shot.  After watching some of my films, I noticed I missed most often and in turn get killed when I lose patience and try to force a shot.

Most of my misses come from trying to pull too hard for a lead and I end up losing site of the target because he is buried in my instrument panel.  It so easy for the target to jink out of plane, reverse and snapshot me when I do this.

Now, I take my time, lag roll, lag pursuit, get a good solid solution, unload and then squeeze... Bang!!!

Thanks guys!!

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Offline Hien

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Please comment: acm and gunnery
« Reply #36 on: October 24, 2007, 04:34:22 AM »
(These are just my views, on how I do things, but any help would be greatly appreciated)

After about an hour offline, I figured out my Convergence area.  Simply by the fact I noticed that I don't fire when you're farther than 200 away from me.  This probably has alot to do with the fact I used to fly the Yak-9U alot.  It was (and still is, though I haven't used it alot lately) one of my best/favorite rides.  But back to the subject.  

Like I said, I just won't fire out of 200.  And this can cause some major problems for me.  Specially' when someones in a faster plane than myself.  And just extends (common of late, as I've been flying slower aircraft, cept the 190A-5... but that was pretty much random.)  I know I need to practice on farther shots, but it is a tough habit.  I just don't like wasting bullets.  It makes me feel bad.   Any way you guys think I can speed the process up?  I mean, I figure I might just slowly set the Conv. out farther.  Until I hit an area that is actually better, and know it for the different planes I fly.  

On SA, I have learned fairly quickly that if you aren't looking around, you will get shot in the buttocks, and there probably won't be enough of you left to go eat ice cream at a Field Hospital.  Heck, I learned that in Warbirds, and I only played it about a month.  And it has nowhere near the numbers we do here.

I constantly sweep the area, atleast when I'm not in combat.  Wing dips, with rudder to counter some of the alt. loss (I climbed up there, it took time, I don't want to just give it away) and even flying inverted for short times to make sure no one is hiding somewhere.  I figure this is a good thing.  Right?

But in battle, I tend to slow it down in my mind.  More so recently.  I see a plane, and I zoom in quickly with the Camera to see what he's doing.  I figure I've seen a few of the more common cockpits and I know about where he can/can't see.  Even if I have a big red marker showing where I am.  So, if I can I like to set up to come in from those blind spots.  And with the sun giving me a light (pun intended) push to help.  I used to not do this.  And I still have to think about it now adays, it's not natural to me yet.   I'll do it even if their above me, or co-alt.  As long as he doesn't see me, he 'should' be an easy kill.  Thankfully most people see me. (Cause, you know, as much as I like stabbing people in the back, it still feels kinda dirty)

Also, I've recently been seeing how an aircraft is flying from a distance.  His direction.  And about what speed he might be, based off alt. and situation.  And I try to think what I would be doing in his case.  And visioning how I would do it.  Low La-7 leaving everyone in the dust?  Common since tells me if he has fuel, and ammo left, he will climb back up once we ignore him.  There are other situations, but that is the most common to me.  None of the aircraft I fly can keep up with a La-7 at just about any alt.  So, I just usally let them walk away.  Let the faster guys get them, I don't mind.   But during that time my head will stay on a swivel.  Sure, I have a low target out infront of me, but he may have sneaky friends.  Sneaky friends that will come from behind and put a bullet in my backside.  

I can usually keep my enemy in my view, since I have the buttons around my hat switch set to The up angles (Fr, Fl, Rl, Rr) as well as another button in easy reach for the area between all the way up, and forward.  Not to mention that I have the head posistions set to what I find the most 'seeing.'  So, lately I've been seeing things more 3d.  I can see up and downs uses finally.  It only took a year.  (It was mostly because of that P-40 vs. N1k video someone put up, sorry if I can't remember who. :(  )  


I think I've gotten better since I was gone, atleast it seems like it.  It may just be because I'm lucky (Hah!  I doubt that! Me and Luck are not good pals!)  I could just be crazy.  That's more likely.

One of my major problems is I will get fixated.   I try to break it, but my gunnery is kinda... crap.  So alot of the time I end up losing my target when I look around.  The only way I've figured out how to fix this is to just lag track.  Hey, I mean, I look around, and if I didn't turn any faster/he didn't manuever, then it's very likely he is just where I left him.  Don't turn all the way, and just pull him in.   I personally don't trust snap shots.  I prefer a steady target in my sights.  But that isn't always possible.  And I will shoot anyone who gets thier long enough for me to 'feel' them getting hit.

Do these seem like good things to you guys?  (On a side note, I got Check 6: The Virtual Pilots thingy last summer, and I read it alot.  And I have found it useful, if very... vague at times)

Offline Urchin

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Please comment: acm and gunnery
« Reply #37 on: October 24, 2007, 06:30:08 AM »
Hien - regarding your views.  

All you need is one "look up" button.  Pressing the look up button in combination with the hat will give you a 45 degree view.  

So for example my views are set as follows -

Up on hat - "forward up" (45 degree up, forward)
Rest of hat - front right, right, back right, back, back left, left, front left.

Button on throttle - "up" - looks straight up.

I press right on the hat and I look out over my right wing.  I hold the hat right and press the look up button, my view swivels up 45 degrees and I'm now looking at my 3 o clock high position.  I let go of the hat but hold the button, and my view shifts to straight up out the top of the cockpit.  

If you want to consistantly come out ahead in 1v1 fights you have to be able to do three things, and you have to be able to do them all at the same time.  You have to be able to control your plane, you have to be able to keep the enemy plane in sight, and you have to control your throttle.  Typically, unless you have a HOTAS setup, the last two are very difficult to do simultanously.

Offline LPman

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Please comment: acm and gunnery
« Reply #38 on: October 24, 2007, 09:53:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Urchin
...You have to be able to control your plane, you have to be able to keep the enemy plane in sight, and you have to control your throttle.  Typically, unless you have a HOTAS setup, the last two are very difficult to do simultanously.
Hopefully Santa will bring me a HOTAS this year. Meanwhile, this setup works great for me:

I mapped "look up" to the trigger, and "fire all guns" mapped to keyboard space bar. Primary and secondary fire to keys A and S. Took a couple days to get used to but it made a huge difference once it became second nature. I can keep the bandit in view and maneuver with stick hand while my other hand is always free for throttle, flaps, guns, beer, fist shaking, giving the bandit the finger as he rolls over me, etc.

Offline Hien

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« Reply #39 on: October 24, 2007, 11:00:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Urchin
Hien - regarding your views.  

All you need is one "look up" button.  Pressing the look up button in combination with the hat will give you a 45 degree view.  

So for example my views are set as follows -

Up on hat - "forward up" (45 degree up, forward)
Rest of hat - front right, right, back right, back, back left, left, front left.

Button on throttle - "up" - looks straight up.

I press right on the hat and I look out over my right wing.  I hold the hat right and press the look up button, my view swivels up 45 degrees and I'm now looking at my 3 o clock high position.  I let go of the hat but hold the button, and my view shifts to straight up out the top of the cockpit.  

If you want to consistantly come out ahead in 1v1 fights you have to be able to do three things, and you have to be able to do them all at the same time.  You have to be able to control your plane, you have to be able to keep the enemy plane in sight, and you have to control your throttle.  Typically, unless you have a HOTAS setup, the last two are very difficult to do simultanously.


Well, I would do that, and will probably try.  But a few of the buttons on my EXTREME (yeah, right http://www.metaleks.lv/images/products/99/40/large/Extreme%203D%20Pro%20Joystick1.jpg ) Pro 3d have died, including the main finger trigger, and 2 of the 6 buttons to the side. :(
(On a side note, it would be great if I could get them fixed, but I doubt that will happen)

I have it set up to fire Secondary with the thumb button, which isn't so bad really.  Since I don't think I should be looking around when I fire my guns at something infront of me.  And whenever I feel the need to check my 6 right before I fire I just curl my pointer up and move the Hat with it. (looking at that, right now, how I do that.  It looks really wierd... I should take a picture... or something.  Because it's my middile finger on the dead trigger. :huh  )

Problem is I have set primary to one of the 6 side buttons, so I have to think when I fire them, it's not natural.  I will probably set them both back to the thumb button.  

Yeah...  I think I'll go do that right now...  Ooooh yeah...

On the Throttle and views part I don't have too hard of a time, my left thumb and pointer can get the throttle, and the rest of my fingers operate the 6 buttons above it.  Mostly cause none of them combine with anything else, shouldn't be too hard to add a look up to one of them and keep in throttle control.  

I've had crazier control schemes in Mechwarrior.  (I used to have two Joysticks, and Mechwarrior 3, well... yeah.  I think you get the idea.  Too bad I don't have rudder pedals.  Or else I would set the Rudder Axis on my stick to move my head left and right. :D)

Thanks alot Urchin  :aok

Offline A8TOOL

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Please comment: acm and gunnery
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2007, 03:17:17 AM »
Most of my hits in pursuit mode I can't even see happen in my window. They happen underneath my plane out of view. It's a guessing game.  

Sometimes I pull up well past the plane then release pressure on the stick and wait a sec for him to enter the window before i shoot.

Looking for angle shots is probably the best way to learn gunnery. It was easy for me to understand when explained like this.  You want to throw a football to a guy running across the field. Do you throw it right at him or judge his speed and throw it in front of him? The answers obvious so, make your bullets meet the plane in the same way. The closer you are the less you lead him.

Sometimes when there is no chance of hitting a plane without crashing into him i'll use hard rudder to point my nose in his direction as he approaches. I don't get many kills that way but it does make it easier to put him dn on the second try if there is one plus you may give him pilot wound or smoke his eng.

Offline A8TOOL

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Please comment: acm and gunnery
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2007, 03:25:16 AM »
Question on hit %

Is it counted by how many bullets you put in him or how many it takes to put him down. I'm very cheap on the ammo and usually don't fire unless I know I have a shot.  In other words, If i put more MG or 50's in him before i fire the cannon and kill him would my hit % go up? I think i'm between 12 and 13 now which leads me to another question.

Dose that mean I'm putting 12 bullets per 100 in him? It doesn't seem like it but i could be wrong.

Offline Urchin

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« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2007, 06:16:29 AM »
Yes, a 12% hit percentage means you hit with 12 out of every 100 rounds you fire.  

Honestly, that isn't bad.  

"Fighter Mode" counts a round as a miss unless it hits an enemy plane.  If you come upon an M3 and strafe it, you "missed" with every round.  If you de-ack a field, or strafe ammo/radar/whatever, you "missed" with those rounds.  

So if you do a lot of mud moving in fighter mode, your hit percentage will be a little gimped.