General Climate Discussion

[Holden McGroin]

And regarding those underground coal fires, I have never seen you give a proper source for it, nor explane how they spew co2 without inhaling oxygen.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/firehole.html?c=y&page=2  Estimates vary, but some scientists believe that anywhere from 20 million to 200 million tons burn there China each year, producing as much carbon dioxide as about 1 percent of the total carbon dioxide from fossil fuels burned on earth.

As far as inhaling Oxygen, I don't know what he was getting to, obviously it is not anerobic.

[lazs2]

angus.. who cares about your riddle?  Is it just some sort of mental masturbation math game?

Point is.. it matters not.  We are not heating or cooling the globe to any significant degree and.. even if we wanted to..  we couldn't.

Any math on how much the ocean has to cool or heat is bogus since all sorts of other factors that neither you nor me nor any scientist today understands is in play.

If you think co2 is melting your back yard then scream at the china to put out the coal fires then we will talk.

lazs

lazs

[moot]

The last 50 year period without sunspots coincided with a 50 year ice age - 1650-1700AD..
Found this thing too.. http://www.publish.csiro.au/nid/138/paper/AS06018.htm

It supports the contention that the level of activity on the Sun will significantly diminish sometime in the next decade and remain low for about 20 - 30 years. On each occasion that the Sun has done this in the past the World’s mean temperature has dropped by ~ 1 - 2 C.

http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2008/06/28/astronomical-society-of-australia-publishes-new-paper-warning-of-solar-quieting-and-global-cooling/

[lazs2]

well.. this natural and wonderful warm period that we have enjoyed for so long can't last forever..  we are due for mother nature to give us a cold spell..

I have enjoyed the mild weather.. a lot of people have ignored how good it has been and gone into fits of rightious indignation and control and depression instead of enjoying it.

Boy are they gonna feel dumb when it gets cold.

lazs

[Toad]

Could someone please photoshop me a crocodile sunning on an iceberg? I may want to make a souvenir Cretaceous T-shirt.

[Angus]

angus.. who cares about your riddle?  Is it just some sort of mental masturbation math game?

Point is.. it matters not.  We are not heating or cooling the globe to any significant degree and.. even if we wanted to..  we couldn't.

Any math on how much the ocean has to cool or heat is bogus since all sorts of other factors that neither you nor me nor any scientist today understands is in play.

If you think co2 is melting your back yard then scream at the china to put out the coal fires then we will talk.

lazs

lazs

The riddle only takes a tiny understanding of the earths atmosphere along with very simple physics.
Use any word over it that you like, you've just proved that you don't understand squat.
Posting selected links is one thing, using your head is another....

It really is a very simple calculus 

[Jackal1]

Could someone please photoshop me a crocodile sunning on an iceberg?

Now that`s an instant classic!

[Angus]

Okay Jackie, maybe you want to have a pot shot at it?
How much of a volume of 1 deg heating of water does it take to match 1 deg of the atmosphere as a total?

Surely, you won't flush this one????

[lazs2]

angus... you are still trying to figure out where the underground coal fires in china are getting their oxygen..

Since you are such a wizz at simple calculus...  maybe you can tell us what the exact temp of the globe will be next month?   a year from now?  5 years? 

Maybe you can tell me what is heating the planet if you admit that it is not co2?   I will give you a hint..it is big and yellow.

lazs

[Angus]

What you ask of me, is a calculus that is flaky with experts at it armed with supercomputers.
What I ask of you is to use your head for a calculus that any 14 year old probably has learned....and you may have all the numbers in your head already. It only takes some understanding....
Now....that big and yellow thing BTW hasn't been swinging up lately to any extent.....FYI..

So, ready to try, or do you want me to try and explain the math???

[SPKmes]

Where are the wombles..... Bring back the wombles.

[Holden McGroin]

Okay Jackie, maybe you want to have a pot shot at it?
How much of a volume of 1 deg heating of water does it take to match 1 deg of the atmosphere as a total?

Surely, you won't flush this one????

Well 1 degree C heating of the ocean is 1 Kcalorie per kilogram, and the weight of the ocean is 4.18 E21 kg.

So 4.18 E21 Calories...  Wait, though, that Cp is for fresh water.  Seawater is 0.936 BTU / Lb at 30F, or 2.177 Kj/Kg or 4.1868 Kc/Kg, but that changes based of temperature and salinity.

The weight of the atmosphere is 4.99 quadrillion metric tons, 4.99 E18 kg but the value for the heat capacity of the atmosphere chhnges at its density changes, and the amount of water vapor vs dry air.

the heat capacity of dry air at STP is  cp = 1.006 kJ/kg DegC, but that is a standard pressure and Temperature.. at 20,000 feet the Cp is....

I just ran out of paper and my pencil needs sharpening.

[Angus]

Make it simpler....
The atmospheric pressure = weight is 760 mm Hg. So you only have to take 76 cm of mercury and calculate it over to water, what was that again 11x?
Then divide that with approc 0.7 and there you have the thickness of water matching the gravity of the entire atmosphere over land and sea....
Not a very thick layer now is it...Even earths Ice alone "holds" more energy than the entire atmosphere....
My point is that swings in air temp weight less than warming water and melting ice.

[Holden McGroin]

Well, 4.18 E21 kg > 4.99 E18 kg by almost a thousand times, and 2.177 Kj/Kg > 1.006 kJ/kg DegC by twice, so somewhere around 2,000 times more heat in the ocean that the atmosphere assuming the same average temperature for both.

but simple calculus it ain't 

[Angus]

The result is simple enough. Ocean and Ice temps completely make nothing out of the atmospheric energy.
Which makes Ice melting no laughing matter.
And simple...well that wasn't all that tough, since you basically can compare the masses by calculating atm to water
BTW, one link I found claims the energy to be 1000 fold. So you're in the ballpark.