Author Topic: General Climate Discussion  (Read 82692 times)

Offline WWhiskey

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #1485 on: April 05, 2008, 06:58:53 PM »
Monk is one person, over five hundred scientist's have declared the falt in this theory as have they also found the fault in the U.N. data, but fill me in, how was he debunked? as with most scientist's the argument is part of the fact finding mission , to just accept  that man made global warming exist is to go against everything that science stands for! why on earth then would you put stock in that theory? there is more than one way to prove this type of problem yet you have yet to put one forth.
"this guy is a fraud!" or "that  has too be!"  that is all i hear !there are no absolutes in this yet, exept for the fact that politicians push the man made global warming theory, and scientist disprove it!
Show me real data source material and the formula it was derived from if it is for real and the numbers have not been "fixed" in a way that skewws  either way, then you will have done more than anyone else to support your cause! you will have been truthfull. as i said i dont know for sure one way or another but the science sure looks like it goes against man made global warming!
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Offline WWhiskey

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #1486 on: April 05, 2008, 07:04:16 PM »
100 yea ! o and i was wandering if you found any dirt on david deming?
 i bet you will have a feild day with him!
« Last Edit: April 05, 2008, 07:25:02 PM by WWhiskey »
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Offline moot

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #1487 on: April 08, 2008, 09:37:02 AM »
New talk by Al Gore, at TED, again about Global Warming, but back with a vengeance:

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In Al Gore's brand-new slideshow (premiering exclusively on TED.com), he presents evidence that the pace of climate change may be even worse than scientists were recently predicting, and challenges us to act with a sense of "generational mission" -- the kind of feeling that brought forth the civil rights movement -- to set it right. Gore's stirring presentation is followed by a brief Q&A in which he is asked for his verdict on the current political candidates' climate policies and on what role he himself might play in future.

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/243
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Offline AKIron

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #1488 on: April 08, 2008, 11:19:13 AM »
So long as Gore is himself producing as much carbon as a small country no one who takes any of this seriously should give him a second glance. Of course they will. We need a lemmings smiley.
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Offline moot

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #1489 on: April 08, 2008, 11:22:37 AM »
That's no argument, Iron... So what if he's a dirty carbon pig?  His arguments are what need to be refuted for his credibility to really croak over and die.

IMO people need to wake up and smell the roses.. So long as we don't understand what makes the climate tick, we are incapable of affecting it and are just along for the ride, for better or worse.  It's high time we got off this rock and spread our eggs to other baskets.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 11:24:32 AM by moot »
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Offline Donzo

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #1490 on: April 08, 2008, 12:12:44 PM »
Gore's (and all the other GW nut jobs) recent sense of unrgency and "it's worse than previously predicted" mantra stems from the simple fact that they HAVE to get something started in order for them to be able to point back to this period of time and claim responsibility for curbing global warming.  They have to do that NOW because it looks like mother nature is the one curbing the warming.

Offline moot

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #1491 on: April 08, 2008, 12:45:59 PM »
And they won't have any good reason not to, in the eyes of the public, until a valid, factual, refutal of their assertions is brought up. Or failing that, a clear demonstration that there's no grounds for any sort of conclusions, yet.

"Who dares, wins".
« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 12:47:51 PM by moot »
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Offline AKIron

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #1492 on: April 08, 2008, 12:53:38 PM »
That's no argument, Iron... So what if he's a dirty carbon pig?  His arguments are what need to be refuted for his credibility to really croak over and die.

IMO people need to wake up and smell the roses.. So long as we don't understand what makes the climate tick, we are incapable of affecting it and are just along for the ride, for better or worse.  It's high time we got off this rock and spread our eggs to other baskets.

His argument is full of holes that have already been debunked repeatedly. He appears to be the self proclaimed high priest of the Global Warming Alarmists. I am addressing his hypocrisy.   
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Offline AKIron

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #1493 on: April 08, 2008, 01:03:30 PM »
Look, many of those who have swallowed the bait hook line and sinker did so because they want to have a purpose, be part of something larger than themselves. They want someone who will lead them to the promised land. This requires trust and faith but they are putting it in someone who has demostrated clearly that he is not trustworthy. They should at least crown someone who is not so obviously unfaithful to their religion.
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Offline moot

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #1494 on: April 08, 2008, 01:15:52 PM »
It's just proof that Gore's version of the facts is more credible than the others, in that vast public's case... Ron Paul is just one of many other instances of the truth just not being appealing enough.
The truth needs to be made clear enough that anyone will recognize it for what it is.  One of the easiest methods in showing the holes in a bad theory's hull is to ride it on out into the sea.. 
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Offline Angus

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #1495 on: April 08, 2008, 01:40:50 PM »
Smell the roses.
Then smell the roses where they didn't grow since civilization....
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Offline MORAY37

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #1496 on: April 08, 2008, 02:38:34 PM »
Look, many of those who have swallowed the bait hook line and sinker did so because they want to have a purpose, be part of something larger than themselves. They want someone who will lead them to the promised land. This requires trust and faith but they are putting it in someone who has demostrated clearly that he is not trustworthy. They should at least crown someone who is not so obviously unfaithful to their religion.

Again your vast conspiracy theorist thinking puts itself face forward.  The problem with Gore is he tried to "dumb down" a difficult to understand concept, in layperson's terms.  He simply stood up for what he thinks is right.  That people agree with him, as far as responsible stewardship of this planet, is pretty self explanatory. 

I find it most telling to talk to those who have been a part of this countries manned space missions.  I have been lucky enough to talk with a few, and their perspective gave me pause to consider exactly what all of this means, in context. 

The overwhelming consensus from those I've spoken to has seemed to be of wonder, awe and stark reality.  Displaced from the surface of the planet by a mere 200 or so miles, and the entire ball that we live on already seems incredibly small.  The atmosphere that we rely on for everything.... paper thin.  You can see through it, edge on, from space.  Basically, 100,000 feet of mixed gases seperate us from 0 degrees Kelvin. (-273.15 C)
Is it truly far fetched that changing the composition of this layer is not going to produce effects upon the climate under it?

In science, changing one part, one letter in an equation, almost invariably changes the downstream accummulation of readings.  The picture geologically shows us what increased CO2 load and CH4 load does to the planet's temperature. 

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The National Center for Atmospheric Research Climate System Model (CSM) is used to evaluate estimates of Cretaceous atmospheric carbon dioxide. The CSM is a comprehensive coupled atmosphere, ocean, land surface, and sea ice model. It has been integrated for the Late Cretaceous (80 Ma) with atmospheric CO_2 concentrations of 1120 and 1680 ppmv. The model-predicted ocean temperatures, surface and deep-water, are compared to published estimates of ocean temperatures from DSDP and ODP sites in the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans. For the higher CO_2 integration, the CSM Cretaceous tropical sea surface temperatures (SSTs) average 31-33^oC, a warming of 3-4^oC compared to simulated present-day values. These predicted SSTs are consistent with the inferred upper ocean temperatures from the newest analyses of core data. Considerable east-west asymmetries exist across the ocean basins, with equatorial SSTs of 29.76oC in the eastern Pacific to 34^oC in the western Pacific

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7. Atmospheric CO2 has increased from a pre-industrial concentration of about 280 ppmv to about 367 ppmv at present (ppmv= parts per million by volume). CO2 concentration data from before 1958 are from ice core measurements taken in Antarctica and from 1958 onwards are from the Mauna Loa measurement site. The smooth curve is based on a hundred year running mean. It is evident that the rapid increase in CO2 concentrations has been occurring since the onset of industrialization. The increase has closely followed the increase in CO2 emissions from fossil fuels.

We seem to be looking at the same picture and arguing over the artist, not the paint, which is on the wall.

CO2 is tied explicitly to warmer periods of our earth.  CH4 is even more powerful.  We belch out billions of tons of CO2 emissions each year, and yet some can attempt to argue, with a stunning lack of sane rationality, that we are at the very least (I would argue moreso) somewhat responsible for what is happening????? 

It truly is the death of thought, whence dogma and preconception becomes the norm.



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Offline AKIron

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #1497 on: April 08, 2008, 03:00:29 PM »
Again your vast conspiracy theorist thinking puts itself face forward.  The problem with Gore is he tried to "dumb down" a difficult to understand concept, in layperson's terms.  He simply stood up for what he thinks is right.  That people agree with him, as far as responsible stewardship of this planet, is pretty self explanatory. 

Like when he skipped the part about co2 lagging temperature increases by simply saying it was "complicated". Yeah, he dumbed it down alright, so people would believe what he was selling. If he is standing for "what he thinks is right" then why does he continue to contribute far more co2 to our atmosphere than the average Joe?
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Offline MORAY37

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #1498 on: April 08, 2008, 03:12:28 PM »
Gore's (and all the other GW nut jobs) recent sense of unrgency and "it's worse than previously predicted" mantra stems from the simple fact that they HAVE to get something started in order for them to be able to point back to this period of time and claim responsibility for curbing global warming.  They have to do that NOW because it looks like mother nature is the one curbing the warming.

Yet another reach for vanity.  The north pole puts on 6 inches of ice in the solar minimum and suddenly it's all over, in a season.  Don't fret sir.  The new sunspot cycle just started in January.  Ask me about it in 5 years.  Heck, ask me about it after the summer melt, and all of that "new ice" and more "old ice" goes away.  It's kind of scary that most of this warming has occurred during a solar minimum in activity.... you know, the upturn in the frequency of El Nino, the retreating of every glacier on the planet save for,  five that are being tracked.  Go ask the scientists studying glaciers in Montana.  100 years ago.... 150 glaciers.  This year?  27.  A total loss of 90% of ice mass... half of that in the past 25 years.  You might be happy in that respect... in another 5 years they all might be out of a job.


One warm year does not make a shift.  (30 or so..... still no, by your measure)  One cold year at the sun's least active period of time in 14 years...(and ostensibly, cold when compared by the previous 30)... and the whole idea is out the window and all the scientists are nuts.

Still, while you argue, My own measurements have sea level going up by .368 centimeters last year, incredibly almost exactly what was predicted.  Since water does not accumulate from space appreciably, nor without notice (I didn't see any comets 20 miles wide hit us this year), that rise has been from meltwater.  Meltwater comes from melting.  Source can be arguable... unless you can find evidence of some melting somewhere...http://www.livescience.com/environment/060324_glacier_melt.html

Hmmm... i'm stumped.   :huh
« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 03:16:07 PM by MORAY37 »
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Offline moot

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #1499 on: April 08, 2008, 03:23:48 PM »
This is like game developers commiting to a deadline.  The global climate model shouldn't be grounds for any decision, nevermind public propaganda, until it's done.  In the mean time, though, it is common sense not to poop where we eat. It's also common sense not to waste the resources we have; we'd have more of whatever product those resources are spent on producing (e.g. fast quarter miles) if waste was reduced.
It's also common sense to improve energy harvesting technology..  There's enough coming out of the sun to dwarf any expense we make now, even in a wasteful energy diet.  Same with hard resources in the asteroid belt, on the moon, etc.  

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