It's not the plane, it's the pilot (and comments on rank)

[toonces3]

We hear this phrase alot, and I've had a few sorties lately that really show this.

Last night I was fortunate enough to run into WMLute between two bases.  I already knew it was him from ch.200 and so I was bringing my a-game.

Lute was in a P-47D25, I was in a Niki.  Lute was already down on the deck, so in my mind, I held all of the advantage.  Frankly, I would normally have been drooling at the prospect of cornering a lone jug in a Niki, and only knowing it was Lute kept that from happening.

The short version of the fight is that we went a few turns and I thought I had him but then he separated a bit, came back with some energy and on the merge I lost sight of him somehow.  In that 2 seconds or so of disorientation where I tried to figure out where he was (and thus making a decidedly non-decisive maneuver) he got enough angle on my 6 that I couldn't overcome his turn, even with my awesome turning Nik and I got sent to the tower.

Second fight was an hour or so afterwards.  I was in the DA with Stoney and dispatched him to the tower in my Spit16 (Haha!).  I saw a red dot incoming again and assumed it was stoney, but he said it was some other guy.  Merged with an F4U-1D and this time I was salivating because I think I can hold my own in a spit, especially against a Hog.  Again we went a few turns and a couple of times I seemed to be getting angles enough to shoot.  I was in a slow left turn flaps out and I saw the Hog reversing.  I held my turn expecting to stitch him nose to tail on the reverse, but this guy went nose low and spoiled my shot and from there I couldn't recover enough to shake him...back to the tower with me.  When I got the "Domin shot you down" I checked the roster....430 kills, 4 or 5 K/D, about 30 kills in the Hog, 67 fighter rank, and so on.

In both fights I was using an ENY 5 plane against a lower ENY plane, and I was in a turny plane, turning, against a plane I should have been able to beat.  The difference is in the pilot.  I think I'm pretty good at basic ACM, and I can hang for a couple of turns.  It's when the fight gets drawn out and both planes are essentially equal energy that I make a mistake that the better pilot can capitalize on.  Had our roles been reversed, I have no doubt that the fights would have been much shorter because a good spit pilot should be able to out turn a Hog and a good Nik pilot should be able to make short work of a low Jug.

While we bag on rank here alot, I really think that it separates the pack somewhat.  To have a good fighter rank, you have to have a mixed bag of skills and be good at them all.  I have a pretty good K/D this tour, but my marksmanship and number of kills keeps me from being competitive rank wise.  But if you can kill 400 guys a tour, hit with an 8-10% percentage (or more), and keep a good K/D, you're exercising alot of different skills.  I think rank can be useful in the sense of showing some sense of relative skill.

My modest 1300 rank is probably about right for me, I think I'm about middle of the pack among the folks on here.  But I think that I could beat someone a few hundred better than me.  There's a cutoff though, somewhere, where you get into the truly good sticks of the game that will beat me most of the time regardless of plane.

Just some thoughts.   WMLute and Domin, fun fights.

[dedalos]

Some times it is the pilot and some times the plane.  For example, you could not fight yourself in p40 vs your self in a zero.  The 0 would win and in that case it would be the plane.  It is the pilot when the difference in skill is big enough to make up for the planes ability.

[humble]

The pilot is about 85% of the equation in my mind. What most people dont grasp is that all planes are relatively equal across a large % of the flight envelope. There is no advantage in a particular plane within this broad envelope. Within this envelope Tactics, ACM, stick, rudder and throttle rule the fight. The highly seasoned pilot looks to both keep the fight in this "zone" as well as to steer the nature of the fight toward his planes strengths.

Only when the fight falls out of this "band of opportunity" does one planes superior characteristics come into play. To some degree this can be countered by one pilots superior "touch" as well as his understanding of ACM and the capabilities of his plane of choice.

So in the end for the "plane" to win out it needs to either have an initial advantage beyond the other pilots ability to overcome or prolong the fight until a "nuetral" endgame where the planes inherent superiority can give it the upper hand.

As for rank....

While there are some exceptional pilots with high rank...there are also an equal or greater number with average or even absurdly low ranks. From my perspective rank has little reflection on a pilots "1 on 1" ability.

both guys you mention are widely recognized as superb sticks...regardless of what rank they may have on a given tour....

[WaRLoCkL]

Rank is calculated odd and u are right u have to have a overall ablity to kill planes effectivly.

I dont even land half my kills and average 7 k/d and k/s yet i outrank some guys who have 19 k/d and 7 k/s i make up for this by the amount i kill per hour, and hit percentage, also the amount per tour comes into play.

Rank doesnt mean one pilot is better than another.

Honestly I balive in the any given sunday rule with anyone ranked over 500 in fighter.

Usually the one with the advantage wins the fight, but the one that CONTROLS the fight can prevail alot as well.

knowone wins a 1 on 7 battle period, so flying smart, situational awarness are key items to staying alive.

I dont stay alive very much but i usually get my kills very fast, so even if i die i got a few befor i went down.

No matter how u fly, with the way the score system is set up, if u can average 2.0 kill per sorti then u will be in the top 500, but to have a k/s that high u also have to be a pretty average stick. that means u win 2 fights for every 1 u lose, and that can be more difficult than it sounds.

But dont fight for rank, but fight the way u feel comftorble and dont let anyone coax u or sucker u into doing or not doing something in a fight.

[Rino]

In addition to it being the pilot, I find that how tired I am makes a big
difference to how I fly.  Judgement and reflexes tend to suffer when I get
tired...not to mention the bad attitude that develops when I start getting
my keister handed to me

[Lusche]

Pilots are like craftsmen, and planes are merely their tools.

A bad set of tools will  hamper an inexperienced or average craftsman, while a master of his trade will overcome their limitations and may still produce a piece of art. Though his task would be easier for sure when using advanced tools..
And if you are completely unskilled, there is no set of tools will enable you to produce a masterpiece, for you have to know how to use them, regardless of their quality.

And that rank thingy: Not everbody can get a high rank in the LW arenas, but also not everbody who can really wan'ts to. If you enjoy just a single aspect of that game or fly a not score-friendly style, your "rank" will suffer regardless of your skill.
Ranks is after all just a reflection of your ability AND willingness to play the whole game. Nothing more, nothing less.
The good thing is: It's easy to completely ignore it.

BTW: Many people do only have ACM in mind when speaking about having "skills" in this game. But while being surely the most demanding, difficult and central part of this game, there are many more skills that can be utilized.

[Sloehand]

Rank is just the solution of a computation of statistics. More often than not, statistics are accurate, but how they are used - interpreted and presented - can vary that accuracy and usefulness.  In particular, how the statistical computation is formulated can derive either an accurate representation of skill or an irrelevant mass of misconception.

However, in our case, while the statistics are finite and concrete, their relevance and accuracy for what is being measured is highly dependent upon the criteria for how they are gathered. This is the point of failure for our scores.  They are highly susceptable to 'gaming the game' tactics - milkrunning, score whoring, and other even more disreputable actions to pad one's score.

In spite of this, our "scores" across the large statistical population do reflect some comparitive level of skill that, if taken with a grain of salt, can give one a sense of a pilot's skill.  They can be a reasonable gauge of one's own progress and need for improvement.  

Thinking further, even a pilot who is well known for gaming the game to increase his rank can be considered somewhat dangerous equivalent to that higher rank.  This is due to the fact that he was clever enough to figure how to do it.  And, he is by default also devious, desparate and lacking in character enough to do so.  Who knows what other shennanigans he might be willing to commit in a dogfight?  

So our scores may, in fact, be quite accurate in representing a pilot's level of skill and how dangerous he is.  The difficult question is, which skill does it represent?

[toonces3]

Well, there is certainly something to be said for rank NOT being the best judge of a pilot's skill.  There's just too many variables.  However, I think there is a cutoff somewhere, I don't know a particular number- perhaps 500, perhaps 200 or less, where you are in elite company regardless of rank calculation ideosynchrasies.

For example, I'm milking about a 3 k/d this tour.  This wasn't particularly easy to do.  Mostly, I pick my fights, I don't generally throw myself into furballs I know I can't get out of, and I will egress a fight if I'm getting truly disadvantaged.  I average about 100 kills a tour it seems.

Last night we were having a pretty good furball over a bish field.  The rooks were just killing us with a cv just offshore.  There were red icons absolutely everywhere, and it was one of those fights that once you get off deck, you're fighting- if you don't get vulched on takeoff.

At any rate, after getting roped and killed by Lute (again, and man was that a rookie move on my part), I upped a Nik and landed 4 kills.  Right after I landed, I was watching from the tower at the horribly outnumbered bish putting on a desparate fight.  Then the fighter hangers got dropped.  I saw one fella- I'm pretty sure it was REVRAND.  He was in the dogfight, got shot down, took up an IL2, got vulched, took up another IL2, got vulched, took up another IL2, and so on.  I don't even know how many times.

Me, I decided to look for another fight.  But then there are guys like this who will keep upping and keep fighting, and who cares about the K/D anyway?

So I checked Rev's stats, well over 500 kills, something like 400 deaths, so about a 1.1 K/D.  He has a 600-ish fighter rank.

Could I beat Rev 1v1 on any given day, same plane?  Hard to say.  I'd give the nod to him simply because his kills in one tour are about as many as I have since I started playing 6 months ago.  But, I'd also argue that the 'Any given Sunday' could apply as well.  On any given day, I might be good enough to capitalize on a mistake and beat him.

Dedalos is a perfect example of someone that beats me regardless of plane.  It just doesn't seem to matter.  Everytime I've ever run into him in AvA I go to the tower.  The plane is irrelevant.

Having said all that, crap happens.  Heck, I even shot down SkyRock once in his F4U-1C, and I'm pretty sure he owns me.  But I caught him with his back turned and well, if you spray enough 50 cal out there some are bound to land.

[humble]

k/d is about the most misleading and irrelevent statistic in the game. Simply because it is just that...a statistic. It doesnt address plane type, opponent or circumstance. It's very easy to manipulate within certain boundries if one is so inclined.

[Gooss]

I prefer flying the 1D.  

I like fighting spixteens 1v1.  My score says I don't do real well against them, but I think I may be getting picked.

I avoid Lute in anything.


HONK!
Gooss

[Solar10]

Originally posted by Gooss
I prefer flying the 1D.  

I like fighting spixteens 1v1.  My score says I don't do real well against them, but I think I may be getting picked.

I avoid Lute in anything.


HONK!
Gooss

Even though I fly a Mossie most of the time it appears to be magnet and attract Lute's ammo when he is in range.

[A8TOOL]

A good pilot here in Ah can fly any plane well enough to get a few kills and go home. A fair pilot knows just a few planes and most in the 5 eny with the exception of the enthusiast... like ack ack and his 38

Rank i believe is important in telling who is good in what but can be manipulated. Overall rank should not be considered in telling who is better because of the same. Flying styles are also a consideration. I usually fly till I die because i'm interested in taking bases and doing all i can to keep the enemy away or down and my guys up.
Others are interested in staying alive and doing as much damage as possible before they go home to collect.

A few good sorties flown in fighter mode can be left at that for the whole camp and that person would have a good rank in that category. His k/d ratio and hit % would be good enough to give him a decent rank but he'd suffer in points. In truth, most of this type in the game are more careful than good.


I'm not that good in vehicles but have a decent rank because I M3 a lot and  hit so many town buildings that it brings up my points and the same with bombing. I suck at precision bombing but the rank is high because of the buildings I hit. I consider myself to be an average pilot despite rank and am always learning.

King of the hill (KOTH) might determine who is the best fighter ace in AH but IMO the best pilots in this GAME are the ones who do it all.

[A8TOOL]

Originally posted by Lusche
Pilots are like craftsmen, and planes are merely their tools.

BTW, Very well said Lusche. Your post explains it all.

[trotter]

Originally posted by toonces3
a good spit pilot should be able to out turn a Hog

Not true with the 16 or 14

[SkyRock]

Originally posted by Rino
I find that how tired I am makes a big
difference to how I fly.  Judgement and reflexes tend to suffer when I get
tired...  

 

Don't forget alcohol level, I seriously can't remember the last time I got beat up dueling when I was sober!