Author Topic: Special treat for Boroda  (Read 1236 times)

Offline Vad

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« Reply #45 on: October 30, 2007, 11:01:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by fd ski
True, true, true.

Which begs a question: why do they glorify Stalin and seem to miss him so much ? It appears so masochistic...


Nobody "glorify" Stalin or miss and want him back.

But dispassionate analysis shows that under his rule Russia went a way from one of the poorest , illiterate and underdeveloped  country in the world to the second wolrd power. It took just 25 years, 4 of them was the period of the most devastating war in history.

This is the fact, and nobody can argue with that.

In conjunction with specific circumstances and historical experience this fact put Stalin in the list of the most famous and outstanding leaders in Russian history. For ages Russia was attacked by neighbors, we survived Mongol invasion, Polish burned Moscow couple of times, French did it again in 1812, etc. It is already national mentality, we are willing to sacrifice a lot for being prepared to the next invasion.

Stalin did that though we paid a huge price. Finally we won that war. Anything else is not much important.

Offline Angus

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« Reply #46 on: October 30, 2007, 11:47:27 AM »
"Russia went a way from one of the poorest , illiterate and underdeveloped country in the world to the second wolrd power."

Isn't this putting it a bit simple? Russia also had a high standard in art and culture, and was industrializing at a full pace. It was behind some of the western powers yes, but it's one big block of materials.
And BTW, in the opening phases of Stalin's "reorganizing" the population development did not go where expected.

You can also say a bit the same to Germany perhaps? Squashed after WW1, bankrupt in the 20's, then Hitler comes around and in just 6 years Germany is the greatest warmachine (on land) in the world as well as in the front with technology.

You see, if you top things over and start from a new angle, with hope and optimism within the population, a lot of things can be done within a few years. But the problem with totalitarianism is simply that it doesn't hold out.

And as for Russia being invaded so often,  -so was almost everybody else back through the centuries. There was always war, and in the case of Russia the backland was deep. I tend to see the USSR landgrabbing before, during and after WW2 as nothing else then greed, as well as gun-pushing the policy of global Communism. Spice that with paranoia.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline 68ROX

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« Reply #47 on: October 30, 2007, 12:16:14 PM »
The Reveloution of 1917 was bound to happen.  There was already plenty of unrest and the lack of success in the war.  Lenin was politicing "Land, Jobs, Bread" and the public was very responsive to it.

The Reveloution was in and of it self very Russian.

I think if they had it to do all over again, there were some things Stalin would have done different.  Extremely harsh losses of liberties and harsh (if not seemed at times, almost random) punishments in the 1930's and then again in the early 1950's made many Soviet citizens blame "Uncle Joe" personally.

I think most of the "old school" ideals of Stalin/Khrushechev/Breschnev pretty much died with Andropov.  Chernyenko wasn't around enough to make much of a mark.

Since then....it seems that each successive leader tried to undo the old mistakes of "Stalin vs The people".  It wasn't until Gorbachov that it seemed more obvious that a leader wanted the people to know he cared about the citizens and wanted them to succeed....over what before was "you are just a little cog in the system/everything is for the benefit of the State."

I think Gorbachov really the first to imply (breaking with the Leninist ideal) that while the success of the State is very importaint, citizens, and their success (as....yikes!....an INDIVIDUAL) to have a decent life was ALSO importaint.

In a nutshell, he was implying that "if you want to leave, leave, knock yourself out, but things are changing here for the better, and you just might want to stay and be part of it."

In many ways, I see a lot of improvement in modern-day Russia, but there is still room to grow in respect with how the government treats it's people.

Elimination of gangs/mafia/etc. it not easy.  It took 50 years to bust the American Mafia from a strong national threat to what is now an organization that has lost 90% of it's power, and most of it's leaders now serve lengthy prison terms.  It might take Russia time to eliminate that dark spectre as well.  Where there is money, there will always be a mafia element there to exploit it, unless they are tracked down and prosecuted.

I do not think Russia has much to worry about as far as defence, unless they fear China, or give Iran a nuclear potential.  The American people have no interest with a war with Russia on any level.  

Personally, I would love to see more Russian firms and American firms working together for a better trade between the two countries.  The only Russian products I see on our store shelves is vodka.  Can you make a better/less expensive toy?  Chainsaw?  Clothes?  Competition and free trade is a good thing.

I very much remember a day of "Duck & Cover" movies and neighbors building bomb shelters in their back yards.  Many times in my lifetime, our governments were on the verge of mutual total nuclear obliteration.

Who wants to go back to that?


68ROX

Offline JBA

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« Reply #48 on: October 30, 2007, 12:31:01 PM »
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Originally posted by rpm
You forgot a NASA diaper. You don't want to miss a second of this oNe.



LMAO:aok
"They effect the march of freedom with their flash drives.....and I use mine for porn. Viva La Revolution!". .ZetaNine  03/06/08
"I'm just a victim of my own liberalhoodedness"  Midnight Target

Offline Vad

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« Reply #49 on: October 30, 2007, 01:05:10 PM »
Angus, I don't agree in 100% with you but let imagine that I do. Possibly, there was another way. May be without Stalin Russia achived even more success.

But the fact is: we survived that war and went that way under Stalin's ruling. We cannot change the history, and history doesn't know things like "what if". In my reply to fd ski I just explained why Russians even today see Stalin differently than others.

Offline Angus

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« Reply #50 on: October 30, 2007, 04:15:56 PM »
Well. the what-if's are always a challenge.
Since Russia was pretty much fed up with the Romanov's it was time for a change, and there was someone to blame, straight away. I'd put my bucks on that some kind of a democracy/republic, even something close to what the USA has would have worked better then Stalin though.

Hitler is another issue though. He grabs what is basically a democracy, and blames the democracy as well as Germany being a victim to a treason in the Versailles treaties.

Both grab what is there, put blame and purging jobs at work, as well as a "fake" profit, - mobilization which has to be followed by conquest in order to work. The people that were subject to the purging provided some "fuel", as did assets. So there was no magic in the "success", - the "success" was in itself robbery instead of the more democratic way of shunting things around through i.e. taxing.

(Of course that does not work with a fat and settled in emperor position, just like the French revolution proved)

So, if you see that point, my other point is that totaliarianism doesn't work on a big scale, if at all, and all "cures" of such regimes are a fake.
I put Stalin right to the next seat by Hitler.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline fd ski

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« Reply #51 on: October 30, 2007, 04:37:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vad
Nobody "glorify" Stalin or miss and want him back.

But dispassionate analysis shows that under his rule Russia went a way from one of the poorest , illiterate and underdeveloped  country in the world to the second wolrd power. It took just 25 years, 4 of them was the period of the most devastating war in history.

This is the fact, and nobody can argue with that.

In conjunction with specific circumstances and historical experience this fact put Stalin in the list of the most famous and outstanding leaders in Russian history. For ages Russia was attacked by neighbors, we survived Mongol invasion, Polish burned Moscow couple of times, French did it again in 1812, etc. It is already national mentality, we are willing to sacrifice a lot for being prepared to the next invasion.

Stalin did that though we paid a huge price. Finally we won that war. Anything else is not much important.



Following World War 2, many nations quickly changed their status, partially thanks to ramped up war production, and partially to the fact that technology had to be implemented quickly - same thing during peace years could take long time.

United states accelerated its growth after WW2, same can be said for france, UK and prabably even germany. I guess we should "thank" Hitler for starting it ?  

I'm afraid your logic is somewhat backwards. It speaks to versatility and courage of Russian people that they won World War II DESPITE Stalin.

Your peoples current love affair with Putin is disturbing at best.

As for the "next invasion" - i'm afraid you are simply affirming stereotype of paranoid russian. Who will invade you ? China? Paraguay ? With what ?

United States can't handle Iraq in place, your mighty army can pacify Chechia. Are you really worried about mighty Polish Army with its 100 000 troops burning down Moscow again ?

Do you really believe that your nation is most oppressed of them all ? Invasions by mighty Poland and Mongols ? Care to mention power of Russia in 18th and 19th Centuries ? When it owned Poland ?

Russians aren't any more liable to being invaded then others. Russians happend to invade others, just the same.  Hilarious thing is, all those invasions you write about were mostly in the name of squabbling between "blue bloods" rather then nationality or nationhood.  Not particularly different from today, is it ? Look at bad horrible "insert country here" and don't look where my government is stealing the money".... applies to all nations.

In summary, Stalin was a salamander. Straight and simple. He was a murderous bastard who should rot in hell. Hopefully right along side with many other "leaders" like himself...

Offline Vad

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« Reply #52 on: October 30, 2007, 05:23:22 PM »
Angus, it is endless story... We are going to repeat that old arguments again and again.
You don't like Stalin, I know that and it is perfectly ok. It is not my business, actually, what you like or dislike. My attitude to Stalin is different but in no way I want you to share my views. You prune down Russian and German history, and after such simplification your arguments appear to be correct but in fact they are not. Would you discuss relationships between Romeo and Juliet using 2 pages summary of the book?

You would put your bucks on Republic but in fact Russia became republic. With full attributes of democracy - free elections, one of the most democratic Constitution of that time. But Russia didn't become USA, you know. Elections and democratic label is not enough to become democracy in Western sense. We will see this in Iraq again where US are going to build "democracy".

So, we have to agree that you are wrong in your first statement. February revolution actually was democratic Revolution. Free elections were held, democratic government with Kerensky ruled Russia for almost a year. But after that Civil war happened and millions were killed. You know, it was impossible to win the Civil War in Russia if you would have few supporters. No, majority of people  chose Bolsheviks, Stalin, risked and gave their lives for new power instead of democratically elected  government. The idea of democracy is that the government should be elected by majority population, so Bolsheviks were more legitimate than Kerensky - they proved that being able to recruit more soldiers.

Ok, it is just analysis of your first statement. I can continue but we should agree or disagree on that first. Otherwise, it has no sense to move forward.

Offline Angus

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« Reply #53 on: October 30, 2007, 06:02:43 PM »
"You would put your bucks on Republic but in fact Russia became republic. With full attributes of democracy - free elections, one of the most democratic Constitution of that time."

And it lasted how long untill grabbed by the commies?

Comparing the USA in the 30's to USSR is actually quite interesting.

USA goes a bit left, "New Deal" and all that, and into a boom.

Russia goes into starvation and purging at the same time, after an optimistic launch in the 20's.

After the war, USA sits on top as the most powerful state in the world.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Vad

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« Reply #54 on: October 30, 2007, 06:51:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
"You would put your bucks on Republic but in fact Russia became republic. With full attributes of democracy - free elections, one of the most democratic Constitution of that time."

And it lasted how long untill grabbed by the commies?

 


I told your - less than 1 year.
But the question is still here - how it could happen that after less than 1 year after free election democratically elected government was overthrown, and in the following  Civil War defeated by uneducated, bad trained and poor armed people? How can you explain that?

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #55 on: October 30, 2007, 07:16:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
Well. the what-if's are always a challenge.
Since Russia was pretty much fed up with the Romanov's it was time for a change, and there was someone to blame, straight away. I'd put my bucks on that some kind of a democracy/republic, even something close to what the USA has would have worked better then Stalin though.


Romanovs were just like a signboard to a system that was rotten from the very bottom.

In February 17 Emperor simply deserted.

A gang of crooks that struggled for power since maybe 1912 got the power. They failed to keep power from bolsheviks, small party sponsored by Germans. From March to November they screwed everything up so bad that Army had to retreat again after all the achievements of 1916.

Democracy failed. Then came bolsheviks and saved the country.


Quote
Originally posted by Angus
So, if you see that point, my other point is that totaliarianism doesn't work on a big scale, if at all, and all "cures" of such regimes are a fake.


Totalitarism is the ONLY way that works on a big scale, when it comes to "do or die". 1941 evacuation of Soviet industry couldn't be done by a "democratic"regime with "free enterprising".

Quote
Originally posted by Angus
I put Stalin right to the next seat by Hitler.


Not a wise statement. I advised you to read "Rebel" by Camus, didn't I?

Offline Vad

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« Reply #56 on: October 30, 2007, 07:32:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by fd ski
Following World War 2, many nations quickly changed their status, partially thanks to ramped up war production, and partially to the fact that technology had to be implemented quickly - same thing during peace years could take long time.

United states accelerated its growth after WW2, same can be said for france, UK and prabably even germany. I guess we should "thank" Hitler for starting it ?  


And what? None of that nations could launch the first Sputnik or man into space, none could competed with US in nuclear race. If we take in consideration starting conditions just 25 years back, in 1925, you would see the difference.   90% of population couldn't read, almost all educated people - doctors, engineers, teachers - emigrated. There was nothing, no universities, schools, all infrastructure was ruined.


Quote
Originally posted by fd ski
I'm afraid your logic is somewhat backwards. It speaks to versatility and courage of Russian people that they won World War II DESPITE Stalin.

Your peoples current love affair with Putin is disturbing at best.


It is nothing but your opinion. It should be proved.



Quote
Originally posted by fd ski
As for the "next invasion" - i'm afraid you are simply affirming stereotype of paranoid russian. Who will invade you ? China? Paraguay ? With what ?

United States can't handle Iraq in place, your mighty army can pacify Chechia. Are you really worried about mighty Polish Army with its 100 000 troops burning down Moscow again ?

Do you really believe that your nation is most oppressed of them all ? Invasions by mighty Poland and Mongols ? Care to mention power of Russia in 18th and 19th Centuries ? When it owned Poland ?

Russians aren't any more liable to being invaded then others. Russians happend to invade others, just the same.  Hilarious thing is, all those invasions you write about were mostly in the name of squabbling between "blue bloods" rather then nationality or nationhood.  Not particularly different from today, is it ? Look at bad horrible "insert country here" and don't look where my government is stealing the money".... applies to all nations.


It is better to be safe than sorry. Iraq also thought "who would invade us?" but...

Quote
Originally posted by fd ski
In summary, Stalin was a salamander. Straight and simple. He was a murderous bastard who should rot in hell. Hopefully right along side with many other "leaders" like himself...


Oh, I don't want even try to argue with that! Millions of Russians still think that Stalin was the great leader, and it is more than enough for me. And, by the way, I am atheist, I don't believe in hell. Person is alive while his good deeds live in the world, in the memory of people. Not many of the Presidents of US could compete with Stalin on this field.

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #57 on: October 30, 2007, 07:32:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
Comparing the USA in the 30's to USSR is actually quite interesting.

USA goes a bit left, "New Deal" and all that, and into a boom.

Russia goes into starvation and purging at the same time, after an optimistic launch in the 20's.

After the war, USA sits on top as the most powerful state in the world.


There is an opinion that Stalin saved the US from Depression. Roosevelt established diplomatic relations with USSR just to be free to sell American technology for Soviet gold.

Last starvation here - 1933, rally bad harvest, next and really the last one came in 1947, and wasn't nearly as bad.

Purging: there was a need to get rid from the hangmen of the Civil War, as well as from incompetent partisan "generals". During a 1938 war with Japan (Hasan lake conflict) a Far East Front commander, Marshall Bluher was only drinking himself dead, riding a tank waving his saber in short periods of soberity. Now he's a well-known victim of bloody repressions while he 100% deserved what he got.

USA took part in WWII mostly as a commercial supplier, trading with both sides, calling overpriced supplies to USSR an "aid". "Aid" payed with pure gold, my ass. If you look more carefully you'll understand that the US was the only winner in WWII. At the same time USSR, that just got out of medieval age, got everything we got before 1941 burnt to ashes, and, nevertheless, got a Bomb in 1949 and reached to Space in 1957, just 12 years after a War.

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #58 on: October 30, 2007, 07:47:54 PM »
Bartek, nice to see you back here! Do you use ICQ? Mine is 4627619. BTW, Vad, I'll be glad to talk to you too, now we work as a team even without communication ;)

Quote
Originally posted by fd ski
 Hilarious thing is, all those invasions you write about were mostly in the name of squabbling between "blue bloods" rather then nationality or nationhood.  Not particularly different from today, is it ? Look at bad horrible "insert country here" and don't look where my government is stealing the money".... applies to all nations.


Mongol invasion was in no way a war between "elites". As well as nazi invasion on June 22nd 41. It was a fight for the right to live.

Can you call a Polish invasion in 1920 a "squabbling between "blue bloods""? I was surprised to know that many young Poles think it was Soviet Russia who invaded Poland in 1920... :(

Quote
Originally posted by fd ski
 In summary, Stalin was a salamander. Straight and simple. He was a murderous bastard who should rot in hell. Hopefully right along side with many other "leaders" like himself...


Bartek, that bloody Stalin insisted on re-creating an independent Polish state in 1945 in Potsdam, when "allies" said Poles are just a nuisance.

I think that Berlin had to be divided in two occupation zones, Soviet and Polish. 80,000 Polish troops perished in Berlin operation, and I can't understand why France got a zone in Berlin and Poland didn't. JVS understood that, while "allies" just wanted to grab something they didn't earn.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2007, 07:50:37 PM by Boroda »

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #59 on: October 30, 2007, 11:13:07 PM »
Just some fresh air:



;)