Author Topic: another take  (Read 1342 times)

Offline skernsk

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another take
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2007, 10:58:33 AM »
WE have the luxury 60 years later to look back and critique ALL the decisions that were made throughout the conflict.

To blame the pilot for dropping a bomb that he was ordered to drop and likely the crew had no idea what they were carrying is a waste of time.  Had the bomb not been dropped the firebombing would have lasted longer and killed just as many people.  The end result would have been the same, thousands killed.

I agree with the opinion that we are becoming so weak that those who died for our freedom would be ashamed.

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2007, 10:59:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by 68Boomer

I have yet to see the Japanese Government apologize for the atrocities they committed against Allied POW's. The atrocities committed against civilian populations during their march across the Pacific.

Ask a survivor of the Bataan Death March how he feels.


You've yet to see it because you haven't bothered to look for it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan

Offline P47Gra

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« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2007, 11:00:58 AM »
My father was an Airline Pilot fo ra major carrier.  His flights at times flew within miles of White Sands.  His announcements of the site and its historic events have made many applaud and many scold.  His accounts of several Japanese travelers demanding reparations from the airline landed him in hot water.  He never appologized and said that he would not until Japan apologized for the brutality upon the civilians and military in the war.  I do not believe the Japanese people felt the same as the Emperor.  War is hell and Truman and the administration felt that this would save many allied lives.  That was the immediate concern.  Truman made the most awful decision a man could make.  It ended a war and started another (cold war).  The nuke is a strategic and political weapon that has consequences to this day.  All must think about this.

HUMBLE JUGMAN

Offline Yeager

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« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2007, 11:14:30 AM »
What I find disgusting in this whole situation is the critic's of dropping the bomb twice. How terrible the U.S. was in doing so, how this country is still groveling over it and apologizing to the world for it.
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Historically Truman himself was so repulsed by the deaths of so many women and children at Hiroshima and Nagasaki that he ordered no more atomic weapons were to be used against Japan.   Oppenheimer also felt that after Hiroshima, no futher bombardment was necessary and that the Japanese should have been allowed more time to understand the depth of the destruction at Hiroshima.  Nagasaki was truly not necessary.

However, my own opinion is that the Japanese were so ruthless in their treatment of millions of civilians and hundreds of thousands of POWs that the atomic bombings were justifed as a punitive mesasure and not just  as a means to bring a sense of immediate urgency to the Japanese government.

Every single hour of continued conflict brought more american deaths and by that time Japan was clearly finished, they just would not capitulate.

Even without the need to invade, the bombings ended the conflict hours, days and perhaps even weeks sooner, thereby saving hundreds if not thousands of american lives.  That reality alone justifies the atomic bombings, in my opinion.  

No apologies necessary, Regret? absolutely.  War by its very nature is deeply regrettable.
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline john9001

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« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2007, 11:52:21 AM »
"It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it."

Robert E Lee.

Offline Snubby

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« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2007, 11:54:43 AM »
i just get irritated when people claim "the war was already over when we n00ked them!!!"

neg.

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2007, 12:47:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 68Boomer
In my opinion, Paul Tibbets was a good man, a Hero. He himself does not seek glory for that day over Hiroshima.

What I find disgusting in this whole situation is the critic's of dropping the bomb twice. How terrible the U.S. was in doing so, how this country is still groveling over it and apologizing to the world for it.

I have yet to see the Japanese Government apologize for the atrocities they committed against Allied POW's. The atrocities committed against civilian populations during their march across the Pacific.

Ask a survivor of the Bataan Death March how he feels.


I've had the privilege of doing just that. Back in '81-'83 I attended a home bible study in Indiana hosted by a survivor of the Bataan death march. His name was Jesse Miller. I aked him if he harbored resentment or hatred for the Japanese for the march. He told me that the prison camp in Japan was worse than the death march. He said he had tried to forgive the Japanese for their cruelty but didn't know if he was completely successful.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2007, 01:19:41 PM »
Reading discussions in Russian forums. Some people say that Navy almost openly opposed using A-bombs, Admirals thought that sieged Japan had to surrender by the next Winter, and there was no need for invasion at all. Unfortunately, they don't give any references :(

It seems to me that bombings had one main goal: to scare Soviet leadership.

Offline bsdaddict

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« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2007, 01:25:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by clerick
This topic is covered very well in the book "Flyboys".  The Japanese were relentless in their devotion to their emperor, who was merely a puppet to the Generals who had bastardized the Bushido Code and twisted it to fit their needs.  There are a number of Japanese who say that the firebombings did more to end the war then the atomic bombs did.

Flyboys is an excellent book.  Disturbing at times but well worth the read.

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2007, 01:37:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda

It seems to me that bombings had one main goal: to scare Soviet leadership.


I think there is some truth to this. A message was certainly being sent to Stalin. OTOH my Father-in-law was in training for the invasion of Japan in the summer of 1945. The planned invasion was considered a real possibility at the time. He feels lucky it never took place.

Offline Stang

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« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2007, 01:52:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda


It seems to me that bombings had one main goal: to scare Soviet leadership.
Perhaps a very, very small consideration.  This claim is mostly revisionist history from what I have found though.  The Cold War was by now means inevitable in 1945.  Plenty of things happened in the next two years that brought it on.  At the time of the bomb being dropped the USSR might have been a worry, but nowhere near what we were obviously having to deal with Japan, and the decision was caluculated as such.

Offline Tigeress

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« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2007, 02:19:25 PM »
My take on this is the bombings saved more lives than they cost.

...both in terms of Japanese lives, and certianly American lives, had the US been forced to invade Japan.

I feel bad for the lives lost... and the suffering.

The Japanese were the aggressors and started the war.
What they did at Pearl Harbor earned them serious payback as well.

They got what they deserved and they know it.

Had they had the bomb don't doubt for a second that they would have used it.

We were simply ahead of the curve on nuclear technology.

After the first bomb was dropped, Japan refused to surrender even under threat of the second bomb.

The second bomb was delivered... then the Japanese surrendered.

It could have stopped with the first one.

War is over.

They respected the fact that we beat them... soundly.

I love the Japanese. The Japanese love Americans.

Where is my sushi? yummm!

TIGERESS

Offline bsdaddict

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« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2007, 02:36:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Stang
The Cold War was by now means inevitable in 1945.

that depends...  "The Cold War" as we know it might have been avoidable, but there were tensions and hostility between the US and Russia going back to well before WW2 even started.  In hindsight a conflict of some sort between democracy and communism was unavoidable, judging by the distrust our leaders showed for the USSR they knew it as well.

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2007, 02:40:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
I think there is some truth to this. A message was certainly being sent to Stalin. OTOH my Father-in-law was in training for the invasion of Japan in the summer of 1945. The planned invasion was considered a real possibility at the time. He feels lucky it never took place.


Training/preparation is different from true intentions.

OTOH at least half of the job in case of invasion had to be done by Soviet Army.

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2007, 02:52:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bsdaddict
that depends...  "The Cold War" as we know it might have been avoidable, but there were tensions and hostility between the US and Russia going back to well before WW2 even started.  In hindsight a conflict of some sort between democracy and communism was unavoidable, judging by the distrust our leaders showed for the USSR they knew it as well.


USSR didn't do anything towards Cold War, the Blue side is totally responsible for it. Red side only reacted to hostile actions.

Fact is that Truman told Stalin about Atomic Bomb in Potsdam, and it really scared him, resulted in immediate attention to Soviet nuclear program.

Probably the fear of Red Army going all the way to the West throwing "allies" into the Atlantic was too strong, so Truman had to bluff.