Author Topic: Der Grosse Schlag patch (Read 14020 times)

Krusty · « **Reply #45 on:** February 18, 2008, 10:02:33 AM »

Have, the way it was described to me, the entire background of the patch is the hinomaru (spelling?) so it does incorporate both sides

I agree, however. You don't have to include everything on a patch. It has to capture the feel and intent of the event, not the specifics.

Hedworx · « **Reply #46 on:** February 18, 2008, 01:04:55 PM »

I have come forward to testify that I am one of the people that PMed Fencer about the patch. I contacted him 1) because I seen where he was going to try and work on one, 2) because I flew with him and he was our CO and 3) the PM was asking what program he used to design the patches. In the PM I also voiced my opinion about not liking the current DGS patch.
I'll try and make it short, but I'd like to explain the reasoning for my negative opinion. I joined AHII because of the scenarios and after reading one of Brooke's write-ups, with his description and pictures. This is my first flight sim, but have always had interest in them and WWII planes. I enjoy the play of the 'MA' but enjoy more the emersion of the scenarios. I did fly for the Allies in DGS, but that is not why I don't like the patch. I just don't feel that it shows what the whole scenario was about. I understand that it's hard to put a lot on a 3" patch...I've tried designing one myself and failed....but the initial design, I feel, doesn't show enough. The patch could have everything Allied going up in flames, but it would appeal to me more if it at least had something to show that there were escort /attack planes. Maybe even a bomber (whichever) with an Axis plane shooting him to pieces with a smoking p51 in the background. Showing that the Axis won should definelty be shown, as they did a great job, but I think the initial design just doesn't show enough.
Again, I know that it's hard to fit a lot on a 3" patch, and also that I didn't submit a design (because I wouldn't vote for the ones that I tried to come up with), but just a little more of who was involved would be more of what I would like to see.

When PMing Fencer, from what I can remember, he answered my question as to what program he used to design the patches and didn't comment on the initial design. He mentioned that he had intended on doing one, but other things came up.

This is my opinion and my opinion only. I'm not hear to make enemys, but only friends. If the initial design is the patch of DGS, then so be it. It will not change the fun I had flying in it or any decisions I have on flying in the ones to come. DGS was my first scenario and I enjoyed getting shot down each time that I did and would bet big money that I will get shot down many more times. It was a blast flying with the Allies and against the Axis as I'm sure it was a blast flying with the Axis and against the Allies.

~~to you all.~~

BlauK · « **Reply #47 on:** February 18, 2008, 02:03:08 PM »

Hedworx,
it is always good to have opinions and wishes. There can be discussion only if there are people voicing their opinions

IMHO, it would not be necessary to show in any patch which side won a scenario. In some occasions the patches may be designed even before the frames are played. Also I would not see it very nice for the losing side (in any scenario) to underline the outcome in the patch design.

Like you yourself stated, it is extremely difficult to include all planes/actions/sides/etc in the patch design. Therefore it is always a guess and a compromise. At its best it reminds of the spirit or of the main theme of the scenario. Every participant will have their own individual memories of the actual fights.

IMHO, the allied escorts were not starring in this movie. They were the guest stars. The story behind this event is pretty clearly about LW fighters massing to carry out a decisive blow to stop the allied bombings. That is the story that makes this scenario distinguish it from any other scenario, right? ...regardless of its outcome.

The image of a bomber formation being targeted tells the main story in a pretty decent way, don't you think? I might actually suggest an image of 4 109s diving at a B-17 instead, as an even better representative of the story. I don't really know what a picture of an escort plane would add to the story, it was pretty usual that there were escorts, right?. However, I do feel that maybe an USAAF star and a LW balkenkreuz somewhere could add some feeling to it

Anyways, I hope the design process gets continued in which ever direction... wake up guys, don't leave in the half way

Charge · « **Reply #48 on:** February 18, 2008, 02:24:01 PM »

Small details will not work on sewn patches.

Guppy's idea is good but I'd remove the fighters and make the bomber slightly bigger.

-C+

Guppy35 · « **Reply #49 on:** February 18, 2008, 02:25:29 PM »

Since I'm not seeing any others.

Lets keep it simple and to the point. 4 colors, clearly defined sides, and bombers were the central focus

BlauK · « **Reply #50 on:** February 18, 2008, 02:49:25 PM »

Scenerio -> Scenario

What is the small red cross in 4 OC? Some accidental left over?
How about making the bomber fly eastwards instead of northwards?
If the blue remain dark, the plane may require a white/gray outline. And in order to make the in-plane detail lines visible, the whole plane could maybe be larger.

Like I said previously, the colors are nice, but actually I think the light gray/silver was nicer in the outer rim than white.

--

Still I kind of shun the impression of (a) B-17(s) performing "The Great Blow". This could just as well, or better, imply Ruhr or some other story with bombing in the focus.
Or should the DGS story be more like "we bombed the targets despite the massing enemy"?

Guppy35 · « **Reply #51 on:** February 18, 2008, 02:54:36 PM »

But there was no 'great blow'. In the end it was the 'great whimper' as the LW effort changed nothing.

The blue is insignia blue from the star and bar of a US aircraft. The red cross bit on the LW insignia is leftover from the 109 profile I took it off of. There was that red cross right there. It's easily removed.

I went with the white in the rim as I believe these patches are sewn and it makes it only 4 colors which has to be simpler and cheaper then 5

It's looking down on the bomber so it can be any direction. It would look lopsided to me if it was pointed to the right.

And this was really only meant as a slapped together quickly idea/example. Feel free to run with it and do it better

One more try.

BlauK · « **Reply #52 on:** February 18, 2008, 03:21:37 PM »

Nope Guppy, no thanks

The one with the idea and insight should rather carry it out all the way.

And there actually never was any "Great Blow" because the plan was never realized. LW barely tested their theory on Nov 2nd and suffered big losses while being out-numbered by the allied escorts by almost 2:1. It was a hypothetical plan which was cancelled because Hitler rather sent the fighters to support a ground attack in the west.

DGS in AH was a what-if-scenario. But if you would rather design a "Great Whimper" patch, go ahead

Guppy35 · « **Reply #53 on:** February 18, 2008, 03:35:11 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by BlauK
Nope Guppy, no thanks The one with the idea and insight should rather carry it out all the way.

And there actually never was any "Great Blow" because the plan was never realized. LW barely tested their theory on Nov 2nd and suffered big losses while being out-numbered by the allied escorts by almost 2:1. It was a hypothetical plan which was cancelled because Hitler rather sent the fighters to support a ground attack in the west.

DGS in AH was a what-if-scenario. But if you would rather design a "Great Whimper" patch, go ahead

LOL I'm just trying to represent all sides. Frankly I could care less about the patch, but I thought I could find a middle ground. The hard part is you have a vision of what it should be, but want someone else to come up with it.

I don't see your vision so I have to go with mine.

Last two versions. Both 5 color with the silver. Again I only did it to try and jump start the thing. I've now put more time into it then I ever planned to

I still prefer the black 17

Guppy35 · « **Reply #54 on:** February 18, 2008, 04:54:10 PM »

This is the one I want

Hedworx · « **Reply #55 on:** February 18, 2008, 05:05:59 PM »

I appreciate your understanding that this was just my opinion and not me trying to come in here and whine because it doesn't depict 'ME' in the design.

The design that Guppy35 has come up with is more of what I imagined, with it showing one of the U.S. and one of the German colors. I like your idea of the plane flying east also as it shows it flying into German territory and is also the direction in which they flew to their targets in the scenario. I understand your point of not having escorts shown, but your ideal also of a 109 would make a nice addition....somehow added.

Sorry Guppy, but I would attempt one myself if I had some know how. I do have photoshop, but removing this from that and getting the diagonals to line up aggrivates me to where I give up. I and I'm sure many more appreciate your time in designing a patch.

Hedworx · « **Reply #56 on:** February 18, 2008, 05:07:36 PM »

Guppy.....

Now that's nice....

Brooke · « **Reply #57 on:** February 18, 2008, 09:26:14 PM »

Hello, all.

I like all of the various patch ideas, and I thank folks who took the time to make a graphic of their ideas. I truly appreciate it and am grateful.

With regard to some fine points of designs, the patches are 3 inches in diameter, and I have in the past run into some difficulty in getting plane shapes to turn out correctly if the planes are too small on that scale. Here are some examples and the reason why the Operation Husky patches have taken so long to get out (basically, going back and forth with the patch company to try to get the plane outlines to look reasonable).

This one looks like the C.205 has a bite taken out of the top:

This one also looks odd (with the P-40 looking somewhat ****-like, unfortunately):

This one looks the least odd of the various attempts (there are more than I've shown above) and will likely be the one we go with. Looks decent:

When aircraft are larger (or the outline is less subject to small outline changes making a big impact on a person's perception, such as outlines from top or bottom vs. from the side), such as the following, things are easier to render nicely and to get produced:

Here is an example of one where the planes are smaller, but it is an outline of the top (vs. the side). The planes are recognizable given the context, but intermediate in terms of outline fidelity taken alone out of context. Also, this one, too, took several iterations with the patch company to get the planes looking decent instead of goofy:

As a general rule, I think it's better to stick to planes that have wingspan or length of 1/2 a patch diameter or more; or if you are OK with some amount of generic look to them and are using top view and not side view, perhaps as low as 1/3 patch diameter. Anything less than that, and you're pushing it and must at least use generic airplane shapes; and it's a lot more hassle for me to get it produced (much more going back and forth on design with the patch company).

EagleEyes · « **Reply #58 on:** February 22, 2008, 02:00:38 AM »

Oh man, i never got the operation downfall one!! I was in the process of moving so i never got one!!

Krusty · « **Reply #59 on:** February 22, 2008, 11:11:12 AM »

Well you could always ask Roscoroo if he has any left....

Only... last time I ordered some I never got any..

I'll have to ask him about that.