Author Topic: Convergence Question  (Read 1696 times)

Offline Spazzter

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Convergence Question
« on: November 08, 2007, 08:35:19 AM »
Hey All,

I am hoping some of you experts might be able to help me with a question about convergence.  My main ride has been a Spit 9 lately, and I have my convergence for all guns set at 275.  I like this range as I work to get close before taking my shots and want my bullets to count.  I will shoot at max 600 on a dead six shot, but will only make a short spray in hopes to make a bogie break at any range beyond that.  My question is this, I have noticed that the 20mm cannon runs out well before your 303's especially if you have multiple kills under your belt.  I have many times found myself with only 303's left and still engaged with the enemy.  I have been fairly successful in killing planes with the 303's, but find that the lead is much greater to get hits than when I am shooting the 20mm.  This would make me think that my 303's are not hitting when I am firing both cannon and BB's and that maybe I should not have my convergence set the same distance for both guns.  Any thoughts???


Thanks in advance for your input.  I just want a better understanding.

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Offline Lusche

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« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2007, 08:40:08 AM »
Use the .target command in TA or offline to visually check bullet dispersion at various distances.

I have my cannons at 350 and my .303 at 200.
As long as I still have 20mm ammo, I'm usually shooting cannon only, I don't need that added "punch" of the BBs. After cannon ammo is gone, I use the .303, getting as close as possible before firing, thus the short convergence for them.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2007, 09:19:32 AM by Lusche »
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Offline Simaril

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« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2007, 08:57:55 AM »
303s are lower velocity, and have wider dispersion than the hispanos. Also, while the convergence setting centers the guns at a specific PLACE, the bullets travel at a different SPEED than the cannons, so for deflection shots the lead will be a bit different.

That's the head knowledge -- to see the gut impression, use that .target command Lusche talked about and see how the rounds spread out differently. It'll make it even more clear.
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Offline bsdaddict

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« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2007, 09:11:05 AM »
by no means am I an expert, but two suggestions I'd make would be:

1) tickle/range-find with the 303's, add cannon when you know you're gonna hit.

2) set the 20mm to converge 25 yards farther out than the 303's.  When I fly the spitVIII I have the 303's at 250 and the 20's at 275.

Offline Trip01

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« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2007, 10:51:36 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Simaril
303s are lower velocity, and have wider dispersion than the hispanos.


I think you got the velocities wrong there - the 303s go faster.

Trip

Offline Simaril

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« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2007, 11:12:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Trip01
I think you got the velocities wrong there - the 303s go faster.

Trip


Nope.


The Hispano's 20mm 20/110 cartirdge delivered either 830 or 860 meters per second muzzle velocity, depending on the Mark. Meanwhile, the 7.7/56R cartridge used in the 303s left the muzzle at 762 mps for the AP round, slower for the incendiary. So the Hispano is 10-12% faster.

Not a gun expert, but if I recall that's a big part of why the Hispanos are so stinking deadly. Their higher velocity does more kinetic damage than many other 20mm, and it flies straighter and truer. (Quick comparison to a bad one -- the German 20mm round from the FF cannon has a velocity of only c.550 mps.)  It also explanins why the US 50cal and Hispano pairing is so effective -- the Hipanos velocity is very close to the 50cal round, so matching those two guns means everything will be hitting nearly the same place AND time, with explosive and kinetic energy. Ouch.



(Data thanks to Tony Williams, who has on occasion dropped in to pay a virtual visit. If you haven't come across his work, he's a world authority on the guns and ammunition of WW2 era, having written a number of books on the subject. His website is HERE )
« Last Edit: November 08, 2007, 11:25:41 AM by Simaril »
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Offline Chalenge

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« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2007, 12:23:16 PM »
Actually I think it was 840m/s versus 778 m/s. The .50 cal hits 930 m/s which is all I care about.
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Offline bsdaddict

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« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2007, 02:03:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Simaril
The Hispano's 20mm 20/110 cartirdge delivered either 830 or 860 meters per second muzzle velocity, depending on the Mark. Meanwhile, the 7.7/56R cartridge used in the 303s left the muzzle at 762 mps for the AP round, slower for the incendiary. So the Hispano is 10-12% faster.

hrmmm, so for Hispano's with 303's, should it be the 303's that are set to converge a tad farther out?

Offline Donzo

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« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2007, 04:26:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Simaril
303s are lower velocity, and have wider dispersion than the hispanos. Also, while the convergence setting centers the guns at a specific PLACE, the bullets travel at a different SPEED than the cannons, so for deflection shots the lead will be a bit different.

That's the head knowledge -- to see the gut impression, use that .target command Lusche talked about and see how the rounds spread out differently. It'll make it even more clear.


So when you turn on the targeting computer in the TA, what is it calculating off of if you have both MG and cannon?

Offline JB73

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« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2007, 04:43:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Donzo
So when you turn on the targeting computer in the TA, what is it calculating off of if you have both MG and cannon?
there's separate crosshairs for each. one green one red IIRC.
I don't know what to put here yet.

Offline morfiend

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« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2007, 04:43:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Donzo
So when you turn on the targeting computer in the TA, what is it calculating off of if you have both MG and cannon?



 Both,you will see 2 sets of crosshairs.
 even the spit 1 shows 2 sets of crosshairs for it's 8 mg's

Offline Simaril

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« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2007, 08:47:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bsdaddict
hrmmm, so for Hispano's with 303's, should it be the 303's that are set to converge a tad farther out?


This is a tricky one, and if I had the graphics skills I'd make a picture to show it. As I understand things, the key to the answer comes from thinking in terms of TIME more than DISTANCE, since distance convergence is built in to the convergence setting itself. Here's what I mean.

First, imagine your guns solution with you and the target in the same geometric plane, flying straight and level. In this situation, the only problem is the 3 dimensional geometry of gunnery. If your convergence is set the same for both gun types, the bullets and cannon shells will arrive at the same position in 3D space...although the slower bullets may have a little more "lob" to their flight path, they will end up at the same place. They will NOT, however, arrive at the same time. The cannon shells arrive sooner, and the bullets take a little longer to cover the distance from gun to target. When the geometry is flat, though, it doesnt matter all that much.



Now, however, imagine you are in a turn fight and you are taking a deflection shot. Suddenly the TIME component becomes much more important...because with your turning enemy, if the bullets take longer to get there the target will have moved. Since its in a different place in space, bullets that get there later will miss even if the cannon shells were perfectly placed. In short, adding the 4th dimension (time) to the equation means that when the targets position is changing relative to you, the correct aiming point will be different for different projectiles.

One way to get around this turn fight problem is to have different convergence settings to compensate for different muzzle velocities fired at the same time. Imagine now that you're in a Bf 109K4, with all its guns in the nose -- the slow 30mm shell and relatively quicker 12.7mm MG. Imagine also that you have your targeting pipper perfectly placed to get the 12.7mm MG rounds to hit the canopy. Here's the key point -- by the time the 30mm gets there, the target will have moved farther along its flight path, so you risk that the 30mm will pass behind the target, even though it is "converged" at the same position in space that the 12.7mm rounds got their hits! In order to get the slower 30mm round to hit the target at the same fuselage position, you will have to set its convergence so the round is "lobbed" higher than the 12.7mm. To do this in AH2, you'd set the convergence distance farther out than the 12.7mm, but what you're really doing is NOT compensating for the "lob" (Remember, the whole idea of convergence is to get the rounds into the same physical space...so its already taken the lob effect into account.) Instead, you're allowing for the difference in TIME, which affects TARGET position in space.




Now, if I have this right, it means that having dissimilar rounds forces you to choose whether to get the rounds to hit together in a turning, out of plane situation (different convergences), or whether to set them to strike together better in a straight ahead, unchanging relative position (the straight shot (identical convergence).



Now if those of you with more knowledge catch an error in this thinking, please correct me -- I'd hate to lead anyone astray, and I'm always open for more learning!
« Last Edit: November 08, 2007, 09:01:57 PM by Simaril »
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Offline bsdaddict

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« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2007, 09:08:40 PM »
thanks for the explanation, Simaril.  I'm definitely going to have to reread that sober...  :confused:

Offline Trip01

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« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2007, 06:02:04 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Simaril

The Hispano's 20mm 20/110 cartirdge delivered either 830 or 860 meters per second muzzle velocity, depending on the Mark. Meanwhile, the 7.7/56R cartridge used in the 303s left the muzzle at 762 mps for the AP round, slower for the incendiary. So the Hispano is 10-12% faster.
 


I stand corrected, thanks.

Trip

Offline Gianlupo

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« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2007, 06:47:23 AM »
Very well explained, Simaril. I didn't know the peas were faster than the Hizookas... I'll have to change my convergence on Spits! :)

Bsdaddict, the Latin in your signature is wrong. It's "Carpe libertatem". ;)

EDIT: I was probably drunk (in the morning!) I confused peas and shells! :D
« Last Edit: November 09, 2007, 08:25:56 AM by Gianlupo »
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