Lend-Lease Soviet P-39 recovered (2004)

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by crockett
I'm bumping this to maybe find out a little info if I can. I know there are a few people here that do some pretty in depth research on ww2 related stuff.

I'm wondering if anyone would have a little info on obtaining salvage rights from the US military in reguards to ww2 aircraft.

btw I found this..

"The United States has taken the position, and it is generally accepted in maritime law, that a sovereign government never abandons its vessels or aircraft. Thus, whenever a military wreck is discovered, whether it be a vessel or a plane, the United States still asserts its ownership interest. However, in a recent Federal Court case involving salvage rights to a submerged World War II Navy plane allegedly in 500 feet of water less than one mile off the coast of Miami the court rejected the Navy's claim and sided with the private salvor. This was an important case for those interested in salvaging the many scattered World War II Navy planes on the bottoms of Lake Michigan and Lake Washington."

does anyone know anything about this legal case.. ie like a name so it can be researched?

Good luck with anything US Navy.  Only guy to beat them and get a bird recovered was a guy from Minnesota who found a Brewster built Corsair.

Navy holds claim to everything and is letting any number of historic birds that could be recovered, rot on the bottom.  Lake Michigan has given up some amazingingly intact birds.  A couple of the Wildcats that were recovered were actually put back in flight.  One of the SBDs was a Midway survivor and is at the Navy's museum.  More TBFs, SBDs, F4Us and Wildcats still down there though.  Someone found a TBD Devastator and was going to fund the recovery but the Navy blocked it.  It's turning to mush and won't be recovered.

Air Force doesn't hold claims to birds lost prior to 1960 something.  You'd have better luck recovering a USAAF bird.  Different States do mark wrecks as historic sites however making them untouchable.  The Lake Mead B29 is one, as is the wreckage of a B17C out west.  Alaska has claims on it's wrecks from WW2 also.

[crockett]

Originally posted by Guppy35
Good luck with anything US Navy.  Only guy to beat them and get a bird recovered was a guy from Minnesota who found a Brewster built Corsair.

Navy holds claim to everything and is letting any number of historic birds that could be recovered, rot on the bottom.  Lake Michigan has given up some amazingingly intact birds.  A couple of the Wildcats that were recovered were actually put back in flight.  One of the SBDs was a Midway survivor and is at the Navy's museum.  More TBFs, SBDs, F4Us and Wildcats still down there though.  Someone found a TBD Devastator and was going to fund the recovery but the Navy blocked it.  It's turning to mush and won't be recovered.

Air Force doesn't hold claims to birds lost prior to 1960 something.  You'd have better luck recovering a USAAF bird.  Different States do mark wrecks as historic sites however making them untouchable.  The Lake Mead B29 is one, as is the wreckage of a B17C out west.  Alaska has claims on it's wrecks from WW2 also.

Well these were all lost ww2 era from what I understand. There are 7 of them 1 P51, 1 Corsair and a half of a Hellcat. I'm not sure what the 4 others are if they are warbirds or what.

The post I added the quote from above seems a salvage diver did win a case against the US navy and he recovered a Hellcat about 1 mile off the Florida coast. That's the case I'm really interested in finding more info on.

I did find this page but I've only skimmed through it, haven't had the chance to read the whole thing yet. http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/org12-7f.htm

Reason I'm interested in this, is because one of my uncles has a salvage company that does mostly historic treasure hunting type of stuff. I've worked on his boat before and could very likely have ability to salvage these planes if it's possible to legally do it.

I remember them telling me about the planes years ago when I was a teenager, but I just always assumed they would be deteriorated to nothing by now. Never had a clue they held up so well in fresh water. So it just gets me to thinking about it, and considering my uncles salvage boat sits at dock half the year..well that makes me think a little more..

[Wolfala]

Easier to grab the pieces, and bring them up on shore in Canada - then ship'm over as scrap.

[crockett]

Originally posted by Wolfala
Easier to grab the pieces, and bring them up on shore in Canada - then ship'm over as scrap.

Well this is in Florida, so that would be a bit difficult.

[Wolfala]

Well,

I'd say grab'm and let the Navy try and take them. Possession being 9/10 the law.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by crockett
Well these were all lost ww2 era from what I understand. There are 7 of them 1 P51, 1 Corsair and a half of a Hellcat. I'm not sure what the 4 others are if they are warbirds or what.

The post I added the quote from above seems a salvage diver did win a case against the US navy and he recovered a Hellcat about 1 mile off the Florida coast. That's the case I'm really interested in finding more info on.

I did find this page but I've only skimmed through it, haven't had the chance to read the whole thing yet. http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/org12-7f.htm

Reason I'm interested in this, is because one of my uncles has a salvage company that does mostly historic treasure hunting type of stuff. I've worked on his boat before and could very likely have ability to salvage these planes if it's possible to legally do it.

I remember them telling me about the planes years ago when I was a teenager, but I just always assumed they would be deteriorated to nothing by now. Never had a clue they held up so well in fresh water. So it just gets me to thinking about it, and considering my uncles salvage boat sits at dock half the year..well that makes me think a little more..

Never heard about the Hellcat.  The only one the Navy's lost that I know of is this one:

http://www.brewstercorsair.com/

The 51 would be getable.  As an example.  Jack Roush of Nascar fame is rebuilding a P51B Mustang that's origins are a wreck pulled out of a lake in Florida.  

Trouble with salt water recoveries is they're basically junk.  They'd found the spot where the RN had dumped Lend Lease Corsairs, TBMs etc off Australia a few years back and it was big news that they were going to recover them.  The only one pulled out was worthless as a potential restoration as salt water does such a job on them.  The excitment died pretty fast after that.

The best bets are the fresh water wrecks like the 39 in the original post, the Lake Michigan Navy birds etc.

The page you link is the Navy's policy.  You can see it mentions the TBD I talked about as well as the Lake Washington and Lake Michigan birds.

[Guppy35]

Another Freshwater recovery.  A 109E pulled from a Russian lake.

[crockett]

Originally posted by Guppy35
Never heard about the Hellcat.  The only one the Navy's lost that I know of is this one:

http://www.brewstercorsair.com/

The 51 would be getable.  As an example.  Jack Roush of Nascar fame is rebuilding a P51B Mustang that's origins are a wreck pulled out of a lake in Florida.  

Trouble with salt water recoveries is they're basically junk.  They'd found the spot where the RN had dumped Lend Lease Corsairs, TBMs etc off Australia a few years back and it was big news that they were going to recover them.  The only one pulled out was worthless as a potential restoration as salt water does such a job on them.  The excitment died pretty fast after that.

The best bets are the fresh water wrecks like the 39 in the original post, the Lake Michigan Navy birds etc.

The page you link is the Navy's policy.  You can see it mentions the TBD I talked about as well as the Lake Washington and Lake Michigan birds.

Well these are fresh water, in a very big lake here in Florida. The lake is close to a old ww2 Navy facility which was decommissioned right after the war.

I should talk to my uncle over Thanksgiving, so I will hope to find out more info on it. Seems he had done some research on the p51 already and had info as to why it crashed and so on.