Author Topic: Tanks we dnt have  (Read 3601 times)

Offline Squire

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Tanks we dnt have
« Reply #30 on: November 13, 2007, 02:11:53 AM »
Its apples and oranges to compare a 56 ton Tiger I heavy tank (which was not Germanys main MBT of WW2 by any stretch) to a 26 ton T34/76, of which the Soviets produced in huge quantities.

The Tiger I was formed into special heavy tank companies and were far far fewer in # than the Panzer III/IV was.

The Soviets understood what wins wars, and thats mass producing "good" AFVs by the 10s of 1000s and deploy them to the front lines.

One need look only as far as Kursk to see they were correct in the strategy. All the Tiger Is deployed did not stave off defeat, good as they were.

As well, the Soviets fielded many other very good AFVs in 1944-45: JS-2, KV-85, T-34/85, Su-100, JS-152 to name just a few, and built them in very large #s. They also had decent guns in the 85-122mm range and shells that were perfectly serviceable. The KV-1 was also in service in 1941-43.

That and the mainstay of the Panzer forces was the Mk IV, even late in the war. Not the Tiger.  

The Germans were so unimpressed with the T-34 there was serious discussion about COPYING IT DIRECTLY in 1942. General Heinz Guderian said of it "we had nothing to match it".

As for the M-10? it had a slightly higher ROF because the crew could reload in an open topped vehicle. Marders, M-10s, Su-76s, Archer, and other TDs (and fixed AT Guns), had this advantage, that was mainly ergonomic, and much depended on crew quality. The guns themselves (75-76mm) were very similiar in loading speeds with no other factors involved.

Tiger Is cross country performance: it was average at best, it was slower, and a gas guzzler, one of the reasons it was deployed into special companies was its inability to keep up with Panthers and especially the much lighter Panzer IVs. At 56 tons thats hardly surprising. In the Ardennes offensive, Peiper placed the heavy tanks to the rear of his column, so they would not slow his advance. It was a very formidable AFV, but like all fighting machines, it too had its drawbacks, as did the T-34 series, and all the others.

Regards.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2007, 02:13:58 AM by Squire »
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Offline Bronk

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« Reply #31 on: November 13, 2007, 05:04:51 AM »
See Rule #5
« Last Edit: November 17, 2007, 01:56:15 PM by Skuzzy »
See Rule #4

Offline schlowy2

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Tanks we dnt have
« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2007, 07:16:11 AM »
See Rules #4, #5
« Last Edit: November 17, 2007, 01:56:57 PM by Skuzzy »

Offline leitwolf

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« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2007, 07:46:31 AM »
it doesnt really help your argument to start with a meltdown.
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Offline Karnak

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« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2007, 09:51:54 AM »
schlowy2,

Pyro has lots of sources.  Many of us here have lots of sources.  Pyro's sources are their secret though.  Why?  Because this is not public research, it is a for profit company that has to protect their intellectual property.

You have also not shown any sources to dispell the "myths".  So right now we just have your word, and that isn't very much given your rants thus far.
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Offline Meatwad

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« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2007, 11:24:18 AM »
Holy crap time to permasquelch another squeaker
See Rule 19- Do not place sausage on pizza.
I am No-Sausage-On-Pizza-Wad.
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Offline Motherland

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« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2007, 03:41:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by schlowy2
See Rules #4, #5

Im pretty sure that the climb and speed charts are for the modeled planes.

What makes you think that the La7 is overmodeled? Everything Ive read about it suggests it was a VERY good aircraft, one of the best the VVS had by the end of the war. Ive also read that the La5FN was faster, climbed better, and was more manueverable than the 109G2 and 190 A4- which it stands to in Aces High.
In fact, the top speed for the La7 according to AH speed charts is actually lower than Ive found elsewhere.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2007, 01:57:49 PM by Skuzzy »

Offline Urchin

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« Reply #37 on: November 13, 2007, 04:10:35 PM »
Schlowy -

I'm confused by the freshman level Calculus and Physics.  Whats your point?  

I suppose I can answer them, but if I told you I have a B.S. in Math and I work with Aerospace engineers you wouldn't believe me anyway, so why bother?

By the way .. your car cylinder example I learned in Physics II (basically heat and electromagnetics), never did take Chem.  IIRC the process is actually referred to as an adiabatic process.

I remain confused on what this has to do with anything.

My point remains unchanged.  If you think something is wrong, go educate yourself on the subject.  Provide feedback to HTC, then restart the loop based on their response.

As far as the rest of the diatribe...

The Tiger had welded armor.  So it didn't need "fewer" rivets.. it needed none.  It was also a PITA from a maintainability standpoint, the T-34 was quite reliable.

The vast majority of T-34s had radios.  Models made in 1940 had none, except for platoon commanders vehicles.  Starting in 1941, all models had radios.

The "off topic" diatribe.

Yea, you are new to this game.  I know, you told me already.  Couldn't care less about your pedigree, to be honest.

I believe that Hitech has a math degree, I could be wrong on that.  I'm not certain about Pyro.  Soviet material from WW2 is now available to the public (its been YEARS since the wall went down, after all), and several good books have been written about Soviet equipment by Western authors.  I'd suggest you look some of them up, but you are apparently of the "if I believe in something strongly enough, I don't NEED sources!" school of thought.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2007, 04:31:28 PM by Urchin »

Offline Bronk

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« Reply #38 on: November 13, 2007, 04:30:18 PM »
See Rules #4, #5
« Last Edit: November 17, 2007, 01:59:41 PM by Skuzzy »
See Rule #4

Offline humble

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« Reply #39 on: November 13, 2007, 06:11:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Meyer
How??


A combination of factors, primarily the combination of turret traverse, ammo handling and rangefinding. 1st you have to see a tank, since the TD was normally deployed in a defensive position (even if moving to engage) they normally had the advantage of terrain. Usually the german tank didnt even know the TD was there till it fired. The rate of rotation for the TD's was very fast compared to the PZV and tiger. Most tanks store the used casing in the floor or in a rack. while you can just let em on the floor this caused other issues in an enclosed tank...including richochet. So normal doctrine called for handling of the "empty"...TD's had easier options for ammo handling. Again this is just an "average"...but TD rate of fire was very high comparatively. This is reflected in the very good K/D ratio's of the US TD units overall.

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Offline schlowy2

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« Reply #40 on: November 13, 2007, 09:07:12 PM »
See Rules #2, #4, #5
« Last Edit: November 17, 2007, 02:00:32 PM by Skuzzy »

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #41 on: November 13, 2007, 10:08:36 PM »
Post the document that gives the Bf109 a 170m turning circle.

Mentioning Wikipedia is not going to do it.  Wiki can be used to find sources (just look at the sources at the bottom of the article, get said source and evaluate it) but Wiki itself is not a source.

Here is a quick splurge into a good online source:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/

Lots of actual documents there, not filtered by historians or hobbists at all.

How many primary source documents do you have?  What can you pull off your shelf right now and read that contains primary source data?  I have Spitfire, Mosquito and Fw190 stuff myself, but the site I linked has far, far more than I do by many orders of magnitude.


And yes, Tigers could pivot.  I have asked for that ability in the past.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2007, 10:12:10 PM by Karnak »
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Offline WMLute

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« Reply #42 on: November 13, 2007, 10:21:48 PM »
after all that buildup I get a Wiki link?

(sigh)
« Last Edit: November 13, 2007, 10:41:42 PM by WMLute »
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Offline Widewing

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« Reply #43 on: November 13, 2007, 10:35:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by schlowy2

Royal Aircraft Establishment tests with a captured Bf 109 showed the Spitfire's turning circle — without height loss — was 696 feet (212 m) in radius (the Hurricane's would be slightly tighter) while the 109's was 885 feet (270 m) radius according to British calculations using assumed values as basis. According to the German manuals however, the smallest turning circle was 170 m, ...
--------------------------------------
Raf says:
spit turn circle 212meters (the Hurricane's would be slightly tighter)
109 turn circle 270meters

109 manual says:
109turn circle 170meters

I wonder what Widewing's reports would be?
(no I don't, we leave him out of this.)
(we don't even know at which alt they are talking about.)


In the game, 25% fuel, with Combat Power (WEP) at about 500 feet ASL, using full flaps. Minimum turning circle diameter, in meters...

Bf 109E: 245 meters
Bf 109F-4: 255 meters
Bf 109G-2: 284 meters
Bf 109G-6: 293 meters
Bf 109G-14: 298 meters
Bf 109K-4: 325 meters

SpitI: 226 meters
SpitV: 236 meters
SpitIX: 264 meters
SpitVIII: 271 meters
SpitXVI: 275 meters
SpitXIV: 306 meters

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

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Offline Meyer

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« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2007, 10:52:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by humble
A combination of factors, primarily the combination of turret traverse, ammo handling and rangefinding. 1st you have to see a tank, since the TD was normally deployed in a defensive position (even if moving to engage) they normally had the advantage of terrain. Usually the german tank didnt even know the TD was there till it fired. The rate of rotation for the TD's was very fast compared to the PZV and tiger. Most tanks store the used casing in the floor or in a rack. while you can just let em on the floor this caused other issues in an enclosed tank...including richochet. So normal doctrine called for handling of the "empty"...TD's had easier options for ammo handling. Again this is just an "average"...but TD rate of fire was very high comparatively. This is reflected in the very good K/D ratio's of the US TD units overall.


An ambush is not a meeting engagement.. in which, and since normally occurs in the frontal arc, turret traverse is not very important. The TD didn't have range finders.

So no, that is pure fantasy

Quote
[Originally posted by Squire]Tiger Is cross country performance: it was average at best, it was slower, and a gas guzzler, one of the reasons it was deployed into special companies was its inability to keep up with Panthers and especially the much lighter Panzer IVs


I think you have to read more on the subject... I recommend specially the books of T. Jentz and Wolfgang Schneider. Or, the AARs of US tank crews, stating that the Tigers (or Tiger II..) could crossing soft terrain, in which the Shermans would bog down.. hardly surprising since the Tiger had a MMP much lower.