Author Topic: Submarine Fun?!  (Read 1784 times)

Offline Guppy35

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Re: Re: Re: Re: submarines?!
« Reply #30 on: November 12, 2007, 02:47:59 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rich46yo
I forgot about Wasp. But if I remember right our own ships put her down. But technically your correct. There were several Hornets in WW-ll and If I remember right the first one was sunk by aircraft delivered torpedoes. Yorktown, of course, doesn't count cause she was abandoned. Saratoga did suffer fairly minor damage from a boat launched torpedo. She wasnt out for long tho.

                 Im assuming any U-boat would be modeled German cause they are the ones who really wrote the book. So maybe a type VllC cause they were used the most. It had a surfaced speed of about 18 knots and a submerged speed of about 8 knots. You'd need a week to get the thing anywheres. The CVBGs probably wheel around at 30 knots. And then you'd have to remodel their escorts to hunt subs.

            The CVBGs are terrific additions to the game. The subs?? I think a waste of time. Thanks to all for refreshing my memories some.


Saratoga was torpedoed twice by Japanese Submarines.  First in January 42 and then again in August 42.  It put her out of action both times at critical points in the Pacific war.  

I was incorrect on Hornet.  The same time the Wasp was torpedoed, a second Japanese sub had fired a spread at the Hornet but missed.  Wasp was a gutted wreck when it was finished off by a US Destroyer.  The Torpedos that missed Hornet hit the USS North Carolina and a US Destroyer.

Yorktown was in the process of being towed and was still believed salvagable when the I-168 fired it's torpedo's into her, sealing Yorktown's fate.  Yorktown was not abandoned when it was hit by the Sub.
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Offline TOMCAT21

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submarines?!
« Reply #31 on: November 12, 2007, 07:38:09 AM »
submarines.....great .....then you can get ho'd by shamu....
RETIRED US Army/ Flying and dying since Tour 80/"We're paratroopers, Lieutenant, we're supposed to be surrounded." - Capt. Richard Winters.  FSO 412th FNVG/MA- REGULATORS

Offline Sabre

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submarines?!
« Reply #32 on: November 12, 2007, 01:30:05 PM »
It is true that the actual number of CV’s and other capital ships sunk during WWII by submersibles is small compared losses to aircraft (not counting escorts, which actually suffered quite significant losses).  However, the threat of submarine attacks made a huge impact on the operational doctrine for CV and surface battle groups.  They were almost never risked in littoral waters, for instance, and seldom operated at night for fear of submarines seeing the deck lighting.  It also forced surface combatants to zig-zag constantly, except when launching and recovering aircraft, thereby slowing their strategic speed and mobility.

The fact is, submarines in AH would radically impact carrier operations in the game.  Remember that in AH, CVBGs usually steam in close to shore, both to shorten flight times and to allow shore bombardment and amphibious operations.  Submarines would have an easy time against an enemy CV fleet that is trolling back and forth off an enemy base (ducks in a barrel, so to speak).  The aircraft carrier’s greatest real world asset is its strategic mobility, something neither appreciated nor even applicable in a make-believe world where targets magically rebuilt after 15 to 30 minutes.  What it would change in AH is how long a CV could hope to survive once it was committed to assaulting a base.  The moment it is spotted off shore, enemy subs would begin to converge like teenagers at a Golden Corral buffet.  Indeed, subs would spell the end of amphibious ops in AH in the absence of a massive collaborative effort by players (and how likely is that?).

Another problem for CVBGs is that they currently spawn in a predictable location.  Upon spawning, they would then have to run a gauntlet of waiting subs before reaching the relative safety of the open oceans.

In fact, a number of things in AH would have to change to avoid completely unbalancing the game by adding subs.  In addition to the obvious need to develop player-controlled ASW assets, sensors, and weapons, fleet spawning would have to be made much more random.  Likewise, players would have to maintain continuous control of the helm (and given the ability to take direct control of both helm and speed, versus the current waypoint navigation system) while in close proximity to enemy subs.  Finally, specialized fleets would need to become standard in the MAs.  There would need to be at least two types of TGs, the CVBG and the AABG, or Amphibious Assault Battle Group.  The former would not have either PTs or LVTs enabled, while the latter would of course have not aircraft, since they would not have a CV in attendance.  Alternately, you could replace the fleet CV in the AABG with a smaller, slower CVE (escort carrier).  The CVE would only have lighter aircraft available, such as the FM2, Seafire, A6M, Dauntless, Kate, and Val.  The CVE’s slower speed and shorter flight decks would make operating a heavy fighter nearly impossible anyway.

So you see, it doesn’t matter how many CVs were sunk by subs in real life.  It only matters what affect they would have in the artificial environment of AH.  I say, “Bring ‘em on!”
Sabre
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Offline Rich46yo

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submarines?!
« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2007, 02:12:07 PM »
Whatever the losses of capitol ships to submarines you cant forget to take into account the losses of submarines to capitol ships and they aircraft they operated. It was far in excess to whatever losses the submarines inflicted on warships. Heres the losses of German U-boats during the war. http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/SubLosses/SS_losses-german.html Compare it to the puny list of allied warships sunk by the U-boats.

                  I still insist I was right in that submarines were "mainly" a threat to merchant shipping.

                I agree in AH the boats would be a far bigger threat then they were in real life. But let me ask this? In the game the subs would have to spawn from naval bases right? And then have to traverse long distances on the surface while basically un-piloted right?

             So if spotted by aircraft they would be dead meat correct? I dont know Ive never driven a naval ship but its not like anyone is going to sit in one for hours while droning along at 17 knots.
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Offline Tiger

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submarines?!
« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2007, 02:23:26 PM »
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Originally posted by Hoffman
A japanese sub shot up CV-16 during the war and reported her sunk...:p
Then they claimed she was sunk again by airplanes...  Then some torpedo planes tried to sink it again... and they once again said she was sunk.
Then some Kamikaze's tried and reported her sunk... how I don't know but they did.

Must have been lag.:D


If some Kamikazee reported her sunk... he didn't do his job very well.

Offline Sabre

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submarines?!
« Reply #35 on: November 12, 2007, 03:38:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rich46yo
Whatever the losses of capitol ships to submarines you cant forget to take into account the losses of submarines to capitol ships and they aircraft they operated. It was far in excess to whatever losses the submarines inflicted on warships. Heres the losses of German U-boats during the war. http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/SubLosses/SS_losses-german.html Compare it to the puny list of allied warships sunk by the U-boats.

                  I still insist I was right in that submarines were "mainly" a threat to merchant shipping.

                I agree in AH the boats would be a far bigger threat then they were in real life. But let me ask this? In the game the subs would have to spawn from naval bases right? And then have to traverse long distances on the surface while basically un-piloted right?

             So if spotted by aircraft they would be dead meat correct? I dont know Ive never driven a naval ship but its not like anyone is going to sit in one for hours while droning along at 17 knots.


I agree that the biggest impact of subs was their interdiction of the sea lines of communication (SLOC).  As for their implementation, I discussed this with HiTech a couple years ago, when he first talked about adding subs.  The impression I got was that what would move on the map is a wolfpack of sorts, rather than a single sub.  The wolfpack would be navigated in the same manner as a fleet, using waypoints.  Once it got near the action, players would spawn an individual Uboat from the pack to drive and fight.  He gave no indication of how the wolfpack would travel (on the surface, submerged, or both), nor how it would be attacked.  It is safe to assume that it would be vulnerable to attack and distruction (the way the CV is in the CVBG), causing the pack to respawn back at port.  Remember however that it would likely be very hard to find out on the open ocean, as there would not be people up-ing aircraft to give the enemy a radar track.

If it were me designing it, I would have it travels nominally on the surface at say 15 knots.  When an a/c or PT gets within a certain range, the pack begins to dive, which would take a good couple minutes to do.  During that brief window of vulnerability, the pack could be bombed and destroyed.  So long as the enemy a/c or PT stays within a certain range, the pack remains submerged and travels at 5 knots.  This would allow a way to delay the pack, even if you had insufficient ordnance to kill it.

Alternately, you could represent the sub spawn group as a submarine tender(s) escorted by DEs that would always travel on the surface at 12 to 18 knots.  These would be easier to spot from a distance (bigger siluette), but harder to take down because of the ack.
Sabre
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Offline peterg2

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Subs! Sounds good to me.
« Reply #36 on: November 12, 2007, 10:17:53 PM »
Hitech's vision of the sub concept sounds pretty good. Putting a waypoint and zooming to where everyone starts pinpointing where a cv is, would work.

Or just hanging out near a port, to pork a cv.

We'd have to have sub hunter planes circling cv's. And then the pt boats could start dropping depth charges.

Offline DoNKeY

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submarines?!
« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2007, 11:33:26 PM »
We didn't forget about the Indianapolis right?


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Offline peterg2

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submarines?!
« Reply #38 on: November 13, 2007, 12:11:38 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sabre
...The moment it is spotted off shore, enemy subs would begin to converge like teenagers at a Golden Corral buffet.  Indeed, subs would spell the end of amphibious ops in AH in the absence of a massive collaborative effort by players (and how likely is that?)....



Maybe if we perked the subs in the 100-150 point range, we could control the number of subs spawned. As with any of the features of Aces, a good balance of fun, risk, and feasibility can probably be worked out.

Offline trax1

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submarines?!
« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2007, 08:44:37 PM »
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Originally posted by WMLute
make sure to ask Zoo about the 17 kills he got in frame one of DGS.
Yeah or ask him about the 7 kills he got in the last FSO in which we let him fly in our squad.
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Offline Denholm

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submarines?!
« Reply #40 on: November 16, 2007, 08:08:05 AM »
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Originally posted by TOMCAT21
submarines.....great .....then you can get ho'd by shamu....

I was leaning more towards bomb-carrying dolphins.
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