Terminal Ballistics as viewed in a Morgue

[lazs2]

actually...  my point was with the 44 that overpenetration was not as bad as not enough penetration.   I have killed more than a few animals with 44 mags and a 44 hole is better than a .357 that blows up under the skin.   I have shot hogs with 250 swc at 1300 fps and they never exited.   I have shot right through dogs (they flopped around for a bit but they died) and I have seen a 44 hollow point not exit a dog and seen it run away.   No idea but it looked like it missed the spine and went through the gut.  no blood trail to speak of.

I would like the round to penetrate after it went through a windshield or car door or wall.  If it hits soft armor I want it to cause damage...  I shot some lower threat level armor the other day (the cops throw em away after a year or so) and it went right through the front and flattened on the back panel.  This was the 250 grain load.

for defense I have both silvertips and hydro shoks.  

In reading marshall you will see the 44 being used and either having spectacular results of just so so.. he was interested in one shot stops.. some calibers did better but more of the 44 victims ended up in the morgue.  some were able to function for a while but none ever returned fire.   I also am just better with the caliber and gun than I am with others and I like the fact that it is accurate at range and will go through cars.

One of the swat guys at the range was hit in the back by one.   he was left for dead but his armor stopped the round (240 jhp)  he was paralyzed for about 6 months.. they didn't know if he would recover.   He has recovered fully.

I like the 357..  I have a 340 PD that is light and effective.  I have a 45 kimber that is accurate and reliable.   If I had a choice in a gunfight I would take the 4" ruger custom every time tho.  

He mentions categories of bad guys... I think this is accurate.. there are those (the vast majority) who will run away even seeing a gun.. any gun will do.  

There are those who will shoot and need to be shot at to get them to lie down or run away... here.. it is good to get into a discussion of what is the best gee wiz gun to use..

Then there is the guy who is determined to kill you.   I want to be able to shoot right through this guy with a big caliber.. I want to shoot him if he hides behind a car door... I want a caliber that makes it almost impossible for him to find cover and... I want to be able to hit him on the run or from 30 yards out.

I want a 44 mag.. I don't want a 44 with weak special rounds in it.   Might as well have a 45.

on game animals.. I have seen em dropped with 22's and I have seen 7mm mags punch a little hole and do no damage.. I have seen a 45 ball from a 1861 army (44 but really .452) stop a deer dead..  that does not mean that the old cap and ball at 800 fps is a better caliber for deer than the 7 mm mag.

To me.. the 44 mag is just the most versitile of hanguns you can shoot at people with.   it will kill with the best and do things none of the others will do.

lazs

[lazs2]

which brings us to angus... he has a good point..  the 9mm has always been consiedered a marginal killer.. at virginia tech it killed scores with very few survivors.

The 22 is worse.. probly the worst next to the .25 and yet.. at a school... it killled 7 with very few survivors.  

it is maybe a lot to do with shot placement but something else to do with having all the time in the world to shoot a cowering victim... pretty much an execution.  we have seen weak calibers used for executions too many times and know they work..  the bullet to the back of the head... a .32 or 380 or worse.. nagant.. all do the job on helpless victims.

It is also true that in a gunfight.. people have been hit by these calibers multiple times and don't even know it till much later... after the fight is over.

I have not heard of anyone not knowing they were hit by a 44 mag to the torso.

lazs

[culero]

Good points on all counts, lazs. You're certainly right in terms of versatility, i.e. shooting through barriers etc. In that context I agree with you. My position is due to my tactical philosophy.

If I am away from home, I cannot foresee a situation in which I might need to shoot a person unless they are close to me and threatening/approaching. Otherwise, I am simply gonna leave and call the police. I don't foresee ever shooting at anyone who is behind a barrier.

If I am at home, for self defense I am using either a 12 gauge pump with 00Buck loaded (in/close by the house), or a CAR15 (threats farther away in my 2 acre property). The argument about pistol caliber and penetration thus becomes moot

[lazs2]

I agree.. and I do not feel unarmed with my kimber.. I just know it's limitations.  I have seen er... "hostile" people and they almost always go for cover.. they are bad guys and know the score.  "cover" may be a stuffed chair of couch or behind a solid core door... the 45 will be pretty much useless.. the 44 mag?   surprise surprise!

people shoot from cars these days.  45 or 9mm is dismal for getting to em.. just like in the 30's when drive by's were invented... thats what the 38 super and .357 came out for.

There was a real issue with 45's back in the day.. that issue still exists.  ammo has improved but.. not for penetration in the slow calibers..  a 44 special is not my idea of a good round unless you have to have a slow big caliber and all the 45's are gone.

9mm?  make em work on soft targets and they won't work on anything else... including soft targets behind something not so soft.    shoot some into a 2x4 on edge some time to prove my point.    shoot 45's while you are at it.. shoot at solid core doors.

The 44 mag works... barely.. it is still a handgun but it is the most powerful one that is still of a useable size and can be controlled.   it is simply the best compromise for most things....

In my opinion of course.

lazs

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by Tac
The article mentions its best to use the bigger caliber to 'stop' the guy from getting a 2nd shot at you and recomends using the .45 or a .357 since the 9mm needs more than one round usually to get the job done.

However he doesnt tackle the use of small, 9mm automatic weapons vs the semi .45.

I'd think that if I have a weapon that can squeeze off more than 10 rounds a second it would be more effective in chance to hit and damage inflicted than having a .45 that can fire 3 rounds a second.

What say you?

The 9mm is good for target practice and building fundamentals.    There is NO comparison between the .45ACP and the 9mm.  

Originally posted by lazs2
which brings us to angus... he has a good point..  the 9mm has always been consiedered a marginal killer.. at virginia tech it killed scores with very few survivors.

However, those were point blank lazs.    Throw some distance in there with a gunfight.   You're looking at more injuries than kills.  

Also the caliber that hasn't been mentioned is the .38 +P.    I'd put it in the Top 3 with the .357 & .45ACP.

[lazs2]

ahh.. I think I talked of that in another thread.   22's kill people or animals in execution fashion quite well..  as does the 9mm.   I doubt anyone was killed that was shot at through doors or behind cover or running at any distance.

executions are different... the nazis and the commies proved that by killing untold amounts of people execution style with very poor caliber handguns.

lazs

[Angus]

Well, if you want a gun for home defence, why do you want to shoot someone running away through a wall?
A .22 will actually fly nicely through some wood. NP.

Coming to think of it, maybe a small caliber is better  for home defence? Small, fast, silent, and equally lethal if you hit in the right spot.

Or an UZI?

[lazs2]

nope..  home invasions and anyone crazy enough to break into a home while Americans are home.. well.. they are either desperate, crazy or drugged or some combination of the three.

It is a fact that many people shot with 22's don't even know it till much later... I seen a kid that had walked over a mile to get help with a 22 bullet lodged an inch from his heart.. he was worried about getting in trouble.

Just because they duck behind the couch does not mean they are giving up on their plan either.

lazs

[Dago]

Originally posted by lazs2
anyone interested in firearms for self defense should read this guy and marshall..

Real gunfights with real guns are what you want to look at.  

I agree with everything the guy says.. maybe because his favorites are my favorities... and for the same reasons.

For defensive handguns... I like my 44 mag (damn the overpenetration...I want the guy to go down)

I like my 360 PD in .357 cause..  the 357 always gets the job done and the PD is as much trouble as a cell phone to carry..  and.. it is a revolver.. you can shoot it while it is still in your jacket pocket.   If it don't hit em.. it will set em on fire and make em deaf.

The 45... only lately have I gotten fond of this caliber and only since the excellent KImbers came out..  love that kimber..

lazs

Oh heck lazs, when I read him talk about the .357 and reloading, I knew it would give you wood.

I hope you didn't miss his real favorite is the .45, not the .357.

[Angus]

Originally posted by lazs2
nope..  home invasions and anyone crazy enough to break into a home while Americans are home.. well.. they are either desperate, crazy or drugged or some combination of the three.

It is a fact that many people shot with 22's don't even know it till much later... I seen a kid that had walked over a mile to get help with a 22 bullet lodged an inch from his heart.. he was worried about getting in trouble.

Just because they duck behind the couch does not mean they are giving up on their plan either.

lazs

Well he was one lucky SOB, for the one and only homicide we had in our country so far this year was a single .22 shot, which hit a main artery with lethal effect.
But you have short, long, slow and fast, hollow point or not. With .22 mag you have them supersonic and metal cased or hollowpoint if you like.
BTW, what handguns take those?

Anyway, they look really puny beneath a .45....

[culero]

LOL lazs...at one time I decided to see how much penetration capability I could squeeze out of .44MAG.

I came up with a Hornady 240 grain FMJ bullet with a conical point, and a compressed load of IMR4227.

My test object was a fairly new 10 inch creosoted telephone pole. My 7 1/2 inch Super Blackhawk from 50 yards away easily drove those puppies all the way through the post, with a large splintered hole as the exit.

Point is, I do agree with you regarding the penetration aspect

[Xargos]

Laz spoke of shooting through your pocket and how people survive .22 wounds which reminded me of something that happened to a friend of mine back in the late '70s.  Doug was walking along a high chain link fence while someone on the other side was talking smack to him, obviously trying to distract him.  When Doug resumed looking forward he had a .22 pointed in his face by the smack talkers buddy.  The guy holding the gun told Doug to hand over his money, so Doug reached into his coat pocket like he was getting his money but instead emptied his .38 into the robbers chest shooting through his coat pocket killing the robber before he hit the ground.  Unfortunately Doug took a shot to the head with the .22 being lodged in the back of his head.  The round never hit his brain, but only traveled along the inside of his skull.  The doctors left the bullet in, saying it would do more damage if they tried to remove it.  

P.S.  The robbers buddy ran off, never to be seen again and Doug didn't pass out until the police arrived.

[Gman]

Two words: Vertical Track.

Lethality is a complex equation however at my school what we teach for 1v1 engagements is to "track" your target with 4+ rounds from the belt buckle to the top of the head, up through what is called the "cone of vulnerability". It's been proven that the greater dispersion of impacts is far more effective of shutting down the human body than pairs of shots into the same area.

Pretty much every school is teaching it, and it gives you a lot more chance of a round hitting something important like the spine, lung, heart, medula etc...this balances out the need for precise shot placement, particularly in close quarters when time is not on your side and you are using an "unsighted" firing technique.

Hey Lazs, can you own the 4" Smith 500 down there? I'd love it if I could get my hands on one, but it's 1/4 inch too short to import into Canada.

[ded]

Of all the handguns I've shot, I like the 1911 .45 the best.  I qualified on it during my time in the Navy, and had some handgun experience from before going in.  That 1911 is just pure sex to shoot, and you know when you connect with someone  they will be hurt and know they are hurt.

[Charge]

What is "the point" in hollow points anyway? The bullet gets light because of the hole and if it hits something hard on the way in it may shatter. All the .44 JSPs (Fiocchi) I've fired have mushroomed very nicely without losing weight on the way (Ok, in sand or other soft material, not living tissue...).

Basically the bullet needs to change shape to release its energy in the tissue but if there are sharp cuts in the basic structure to cause a certain way of expansion it may well start losing parts and the energy will be divided in a bad way. So is the JHP just so "sexy" that it has established a good market share or is there some clear advantage over the older JSP?


***

"A .22 will actually fly nicely through some wood. NP."

Sure, but only if it is in a good angle. Shoot it at something at oblique angle and you have no idea where it flies...

-C+