Author Topic: Terminal Ballistics as viewed in a Morgue  (Read 1685 times)

Offline Gunthr

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Terminal Ballistics as viewed in a Morgue
« on: November 10, 2007, 10:49:28 AM »
This is a great lunch break read i stumbled across  - of interest to self-defense shooters:

http://www.mouseguns.com/deadmeat.htm

i'm thinking this fella named "Deadmeat" has enough anecdotal matierial to write a book.  good writer too.
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Offline Maverick

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« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2007, 11:18:55 AM »
It's pretty obvious he's a Cooper fan. I don't mind saying that as I am as well. Cooper had some empirical observations that he based his opinions on, he just didn't have the scientific background that gave him more credibility to those who place credence in number crunching and statisticians.
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2007, 11:53:40 AM »
anyone interested in firearms for self defense should read this guy and marshall..

Real gunfights with real guns are what you want to look at.  

I agree with everything the guy says.. maybe because his favorites are my favorities... and for the same reasons.

For defensive handguns... I like my 44 mag (damn the overpenetration...I want the guy to go down)

I like my 360 PD in .357 cause..  the 357 always gets the job done and the PD is as much trouble as a cell phone to carry..  and.. it is a revolver.. you can shoot it while it is still in your jacket pocket.   If it don't hit em.. it will set em on fire and make em deaf.

The 45... only lately have I gotten fond of this caliber and only since the excellent KImbers came out..  love that kimber..

lazs

Offline Maverick

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« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2007, 12:22:06 PM »
Uh Laz,

If you shoot the gun in YOUR pocket it will set YOUR clothing on fire, not his. If he's deaf or not I don't care but you might want to rethink the benefits of being on fire yourself......

:p
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2007, 01:04:47 PM »
LOL.. yep.. it will do as you say.     I think it will probly do his too.  I doubt I would ever fire the thing in my pocket but it is kinda cool to know that you can if you have to.. and.. unlike a semi auto.. you will be able to shoot it again...

clothes being on fire will be an admitted distraction tho.

lazs

Offline Tac

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« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2007, 01:43:48 PM »
Good article. All is said in layman's terms.

Hell, I know zilch about guns and I understood it all & learned a great deal.


One question for you guys here that are gun gurus though:

The article mentions its best to use the bigger caliber to 'stop' the guy from getting a 2nd shot at you and recomends using the .45 or a .357 since the 9mm needs more than one round usually to get the job done.

However he doesnt tackle the use of small, 9mm automatic weapons vs the semi .45.

I'd think that if I have a weapon that can squeeze off more than 10 rounds a second it would be more effective in chance to hit and damage inflicted than having a .45 that can fire 3 rounds a second.

What say you?

Offline Rich46yo

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« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2007, 02:30:11 PM »
Its all about where you place the bullet. And even then people can take an incredable amount of damage and still fight on and kill you. But overall? I'd take bullet placement and bullet construction as being more important then a particular caliber.

                          And even more important then any of that is tactical awareness.

                        I would never carry anything less then .38/9mm in size.
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Offline Hornet33

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« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2007, 03:08:28 PM »
Tac your question is a good excample of the confusion that is still out there in the world concerning firearms. People hear the word automatic and they assume  that means full auto. Pull the trigger and the gun shoots until it's empty. This is not actually the case.

First you have to know what type of weapon your talking about. There are the three basic groups of firearms and all 3 have different groups within them.

1 Handguns. A handgun is any firearm that can be held in one hand and fired. The two basic types of handguns are the automatic and the revolver.

Automatic handguns, other than a handfull of special purpouse guns, fire in what is known as the semi automatic mode. Pull the trigger, gun fires and automaticaly reloads anouther round from a magazine and the gun is ready to fire again. The trigger must be pulled for every shot. A 9mm Beretta pistol and a Colt .45ACP operate the same way. Both guns will fire as fast as the person can pull the trigger.

Revolvers fire the rounds from a cylinder located behind the barrel. Depending on the make of the gun they can hold as little as five rounds or up to ten. Six rounds is the common configuration for most revolvers hence the nickname of "six shooter".

Revolvers and automatics operate in two common modes. Single action or double action. Single action means the hammer must be manually cocked before the gun will fire. Double action means that you can cock the hammer manually or simply pulling the trigger will also cock the hammer. A double action revolver will fire faster than a single action for this reason. Some automatic pistol require the shooter to cock the hammer before the gun will fire just like a single action revolver. Good excample of this is the Browning Hi Power 9mm and the Colt 1911 .45.

2. Rifles. There are a ton of different categories of rifle. Mussel loaders, bolt action, automatics, breach loaders. Then you can toss in sub machine guns which are somewhere in between a rifle and a pistol.

Mussel loaders are just that. You have to pour the powder (either black powder or pyrodex) down the barrel. Then you ram the bullet down after the powder. Most modern mussel loaders will use a percusion cap to fire the main charge but there are still people that use flint rock and matchlock style mussel loaders.

Bolt action rifles are either single shot or magazine fed type weapons. These reguire the shooter to manually operate the bolt to chamber a round in the gun. Once fired the shooter has to manually operate the bolt to extract the spent case and to load a new round. Bolt action rifles are generally considered the most accurate of all the rifle types out there.

Automatic rifles operate either in a semi or full automatic mode. Many semi automatic rifles cannot operate in a full auto mode. The priciple of operation though is the same as for an automatic pistol. Every time a round is fired the weapon chambers the next round automaticly. Military style rifles will have a full auto capability. Pull the trigger and the weapon keeps shooting until the shooter lets go of the trigger or the weapon runs out of ammo. The M-16 and AK-47 are the prime excamples of this.

Sub Machine guns are kind off their own class of weapons but I tend to lump them in with rifles. They tend to have all the same features of most automatic rifles but fire a pistol round instead of full power rifle rounds. They are a niche weapon. Generally being more accurate than a pistol at closer ranges, but lacking in the long range accuracy and take down power of a full size rifle. At ranges from 5ft to 50 yards a sub gun is great.

3. Last but not least the Shotgun. Shot guns also have several classes of weapons. Automatics, pump action, single shot breach loaders.

Automatic shotguns are just like automatic rifles. Most are semi auto in operation but there are some full auto capable weapons out there.

Classic pump action. Probably the most popular version of shotgun EVER. It's easily recognized by the manual means of "pumping" the foregrip of the gun to the rear and then back forward to chamber a round and then extract the spent shell after firing. There is also NO mistaking the sound a pump action shotgun makes when the action is being cycled.

Single shot shotgun are just that. You have to manualy load each indvidual shell into the chamber then close the brach to be able to fire. The classic side by side double barrel shotgun and the popular over/under double guns are breach load designs.

So with all of that being said to further your knowledge of firearms your question of using a 9mm "automatic" vs a .45 "semi" is now answered. In the case of a devensive handgun the 9mm automatic and the semi .45 are both actually firing in the semi automatic mode and at roughly the same rate of fire depending on the shooter. In this case, yes a .45 would be the better choice due to it's higher stopping power over the 9mm for same amount of rounds fired.
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Offline Tac

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« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2007, 03:19:40 PM »
Gotcha.

Offline Angus

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« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2007, 04:15:28 PM »
The Finnish killer did it all with a .22.

BTW, I killed many bulls with a .22 shot into the head, - from the front.

Depends where you hit, and if it gets reflected of bones and such. If you want to be sure with a chest shot, to KILL, you need a lot of power. It will need to be big and fast and penetrate. Well, the punch is after all speed x weight.
If you hit in the gut, just about anything will go through, - a hollowpoint is very lethal. If it is a big shot in the middle of the gut, none hp, it may go through the spine. Now, anything going through the spine will drop you like a potatoe bag. Basically, any round going through the soft chest at the base of your heart should drop you right away.
If you want to be safe, it's best to have a 20.mm though :t
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Offline culero

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« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2007, 08:51:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
snip
For defensive handguns... I like my 44 mag (damn the overpenetration...I want the guy to go down)


lazs, as I've said previously I'm a .44MAG aficionado like you. Back when I was a real shooting enthusiast it was the primary focus of my attention where handguns are concerned.

I've never heard you mention actually killing with it. Have you? I have, quite a bit. My experience was that it can actually be ineffective as a fast killer due specifically to over-penetration. It can and does produce spectacular results if it "hooks up", because of all the energy it carries, but if it goes through-and-through its liable to leave your target still active, unless it managed to touch a vital organ on the way through (and in that case is unlikely to perform better than a smaller caliber).

Simply put, whatever energy exits with the bullet is wasted, period. It doesn't matter how much energy leaves the muzzle, its all about how much is dissipated in the target.

For that reason, while I see the .44MAG as the ultimate sporting handgun, for self defense I believe the .45ACP and the .357MAG are the best choices for self-defense. They both will tend to expend more energy in most cases into a target smaller and less tough than something substantial like large boars than the .44MAG. Trust me on this, I've shot enough animals with the .44MAG to know what I'm saying. If I am going to have to make a fast snapshot with a pistol to save my life, I wanna be shooting my 1911.
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2007, 10:30:47 PM »
Well, the performance of a 44 Magnum depends on the round you use and what you use it on. For thin skinned game, and against humans, the 210 Winchester Silvertip, or the Federal 180 grain JHC (Sierra bullet) work really well. The 240 grain stuff just doesn't work, and the 300 grain stuff doesn't either, not on anything that isn't thick skinned and heavy boned.

The bigger, heavier bullets are good at deep penetration and smashing bone. The lighter hollow points and hollow cavities do real well, provided they aren't redline loads. Sure, the hole left by a 240, 260, 300, or 320 grain bullet will eventually kill thin skinned game in the 120 to 300 pound range, with light bones. It might even instantly incapacitate, if you hit the right spot. But usually, for a lot of shooters, it leaves game to be tracked, because it doesn't put the game down FAST without really good placement

Now a 180 or 210, if you're not driving them up around 1700 to 1900 feet per second, expand REALLY nice, you get a dime sized entrance and a softball sized exit if you hit bone, or a golf ball to tennis ball sized exit if you don't hit bone. A lot of tissue disruption as well.

I used to see guys using 240 soft point or 240 hollow point bullets on deer, even from rifles, and wonder why they didn't work. Most often they got a 44 caliber hole in and out, and they didn't hit the spine or the heart, they often didn't hit a lung either. Hit a deer high and to the rear in the chest and you get a hole that doesn't do much. And usually those 240 grain loads, if they are factory ammo, don't clock much above 1200 feet per second. They aren't moving fast enough to make them work. A 240 needs to be cooking along at 1400 to 1500, not 1200.

My hunting loads for deer, a 180 JHC at 1800+, is probably too hot for personal defense. But it really performs on deer. My heavy large game loads, 300 solids at 1300+ are good bear or boar stoppers. But they'd just punch 44 caliber holes in the target used for personal defense. Unless you're defending against guys with body armor or driving vehicles. THEN the penetration might be a real advantage.

The factory Winchester 210 Silvertip load is a mid range load, and it would, and has, performed well on humans, I think there are about a dozen cases or so. But even that doesn't make the 44 a great personal defense weapon. And Lord knows how I LOVE a 44 Magnum.

In my house, with the possible exception of Dad's old Colt Agent 38 Special (really a beloved heirloom more than anything else, Dad just believed it should always be loaded, so it is), the personal defense weapons are all 45 and 44 caliber. A nice big 180-230 JHC moving at 850 to 1000 is as good as it gets. There's a nice little 44 Special with 180 JHC ammo, and various 45 ACP weapons with either 185 JHC or 230 JHC. I'll agree that the 125 JHC 357 +P+ is a beast. But it's a beast on both ends, the noise and recoil, while not intolerable for a recoil junkie like me, are a little much for MOST shooters.
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Offline culero

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« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2007, 04:03:09 AM »
Yeap, you do make a good point re: .44 Special. If you do prefer to use your .44 wheelgun for self defense, either factory .44 Special or appropriately charged handloads would be the way to go.

I used to load .44MAG cases with 240 grain SWC bullets and Bullseye to about 950-1000 fps as a target load. That loading was also the bomb for shooting bowling pins, very controllable recoil thus fast for followup shots. I reckon it would be great as a self defense load.
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Offline Excel1

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« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2007, 05:35:58 AM »
that link was an interesting read, long , but interesting all the same

angus, you must slaughter your own cattle? mine get meet their maker at the freezing works. cattle are too exspensive to lose so i only bump off the occasional crook one that myself and medical science cant keep alive.

down cows with plenty of age on them with their usual hard as heck skull usualy get a .22 in an eye.

as for mature bulls, i only ever had to shoot two of them. one was almost at deaths door when i put him out of his misery with a .44mag rifle. the other one wasnt so easy. he was a toey mother.  the mad sod broke a leg while jumping a gate and went completly ape shirt, he bolted, smashing fences from one end of the place to the other. biggest gun i had at the time was a .223 armalite and since i couldnt get close enough to him for a head shot he ended up soaking up more of those little .223 pills than i care to remember. never kept anything smaller than a .303 since then, plus slugs for the shotguns.

Offline Xargos

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« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2007, 07:51:50 AM »
Many people think it's better to be able to lob off a bunch of rounds in a gunfight not thinking that aim is important.  The problem with that is if you use your gun to defend your home do you really want to go shooting a bunch of round and taking the chance on hitting a family member? You are responsible for where your bullets end up.
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