Elevator loading ratio list please

[schlowy2]

Why do 109's compress so much? Everyones always yelling wing loading when talking about 109 turning performance...
Well, is there such thing as elevator wing loading? I wonder how it would rank with the other planes.

weight of the plane
------------------------------- = elevator wing loading?
area of the elevators

I WOULD LIKE TO SEE A LIST OF THESE RATIOS FOR ALL THE PLANES PLEASE!!!

Did the 109's elevators not pitch up enuf? (this would have been too easy to fix.)
What is so different about 109's elevators that the they lock up with speed so early in AH2?
If it really did lock up so badly, why didn't ole Willy just change the tail somehow? Example: change the whole thing out, put a 190's tail plane on the 109 since the 190's didn't seem to have the problems. How is it that even the late model K4 still has the problem (in AH2)?

The compressing is some sort of doppler effect that eventually forms a cone of 'compressed air' on the wing which pinches it... hence the controlls freeze, this phenomenon happens to all planes, why at  such an earlier speed on the 109s (in AH2)???
I've lawn darted 109's too many times in AH2. I don't have an 'experten' control set up with an extra switch (or pair of buttons) for elevator trim, so by the time I get to the 'k' button its too late and not enuf. IMO in the 109's (in AH2) an 'elevator trim tab' control is a must.

I know that AH2 didn't start this 'myth' but it does model it.
Me thinks that 109's compression probs is a fargon lie made up by Eric Brown and his counterparts.
All those testers might be being honest about the 109's compressability but lied about their own planes saying 'Naw, our plane had no probs with compression at all'... riight.

The plane weights and elevator areas PLEASE!

[Stoney74]

You can always make your own based on your own research.  I'm sure there are plenty of websites that have elevator area for many different aircraft.

But, I think you're barking up the wrong tree.

[Karnak]

WWII tests by the RAF as I recall.

I seem to recall something like the following being said:

"The reason for Bf109s to sometimes dive into the ground was now understood."


BTW, this:

Originally posted by schlowy2
weight of the plane
------------------------------- = elevator wing loading?
area of the elevators

has no direct bearing on it.

Look at the Ki-84 and the Spitfire.  One has heavy elevators at speed and the other extremely, almost dangerously light elevators yet are very similar in weight and power.


Also, it isn't compression.  It is just heavy stick forces, like a Spitfire's ailerons.  If it were compression it could not be trimmed out of, and it can be trimmed out of.

[Murdr]

So many flaws, I don't know where to begin.

The issue has nothing to do with the weight of the plane.  The CG of these types of planes will be in the fore 1/3rd of the wing.  The tail is as far away from the CG as you can get...intentionally, because it is basically a lever to affect the angle of attack of the wings.

"Compression" is technically what happens when a foil is moving though the air so fast that the air can no logger get out of the way in an efficent flow.  Instead, pockets of air are accelerated to supersonic speeds which cause a separation of normal air flow, and number of issues with producing lift and/or ineffective control surfaces because of the lack of normal airflow.

The 109 has the opposite problem.  The airflow is so efficent at a range of high speed, that the pilot cannot exert enough force on the stick to move it.  Why was it designed that way?  Same as all the other high performance WWII fighters.  They didn't know any better because there was a lack of experience with aircraft reaching high enough speeds to cause these problems.  Why wasn't the 109 fixed during its deveopment?   No idea.  Just pointing out the errors in your preconcieved notions.

[TUXC]

Try disabling combat trim in the 109 if you are about to do a high speed dive. The plane is not actually compressing, it's just the combat trim trimming the elevators down to counter the tendency of the nose of the 109 to pitch up at high speed. You should be able to dive over 500 safely if you turn off combat trim and trim the elevators more neutral before you dive. Also, you can use the k button to manually trim up elevators to help with pullout if necessary.

[Viking]

Manual trim has always been the key to mastering the 109 in this game.

[splitatom]

conpression is the building up of air on the leading edges of the wing that made an area of that had low air presure which decreased the elevator response the p38 has worse compesion than the 190 that was the reson modern fighters are built with swept wings:)

[Charge]

The effecting factor can be the elevator area but that is not the case with 109. The plane is reported as being stiff, but at the same time it is said to fly like "on rails". If you optimize the response to typical combat speeds it may get too stiff at high speeds. The trim was certainly used IRL in 109s to counter the high elevator forces in high speeds but I guess the benefits in control stability may well have been bigger factor so it was never seen beneficial to alter it. Actually, I don't know if it was tampered with in K models?

One observation: if the plane is reported of having its control column "set in concrete" it cannot be because of compression but the control column would rather lose its effectiveness altogether as the compression causes the air to deflect away from control surface as Murdr already said. So the "set in concrete" is probably more an effect of elevator linkage ratios being optimized to lower speeds or material strength problems causing locking or bending etc.

In earlier planes also the "ballooning" of control surfaces was an issue causing ineffectiveness.

-C+

[StuB]

You can take the 109k past 525 mph in dives and still control it through use of the trim controls.

Since I don't need to use the "hat" button on my stick I have it set to control enevator and aileron trim.  I also have a button to toggle combat trim on and off.

When the controls start getting "heavy" I turn off combat trim and start using manual trim to maintain control.  Once the plane is pointing the way I want it I just toggle combat trim back on and it resets the trim back to neutral.

One thing....you need to remember to be careful and be smooth with your stick deflection when you do this, so you don't overstress the plane and break it.

[schlowy2]

See Rules #4, #5, #7

[Lusche]

Originally posted by schlowy2
See Rules #4, #5, #7

Ever checked K/D stat's for that poor handicapped German fighters? How can planes that are unlikly to win any combat have one of the highest K/D's ? And that consistently for years?

Looking at your own stat's I rather get the impression you like to blame HTC for your own inability to fly your favourite planes.

[TUXC]

Originally posted by schlowy2
See Rules #4, #5, #7

I think the elevator trim on the 109 worked by moving the whole horizontal stablilzer, and not just small tabs on the elevators. So, in effect, the trim could have a larger effect than the elevators at certain speeds.

Lusche is spot on about the German planes. "It's the man not the machine."

[Karnak]

You have a clear bias if you think of German aircraft as "the uber" planes.

[schlowy2]

Someone:
Post some of those 'prove all that' sites that can't be nay'ed about the 109's controls locked up sooo much sooner than the other planes?
Imma read wiki all about it tomorrow, didn't even see any mention when skimmed it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

TUXC, I've wondered about that too. Only the 109E for the wartime ones, how it controlled I don't know. Whole front of the tail plane wing tilted down to 105degrees (a marking on drawings say 105degrees), and the upper marking looks like the same distance, so up to 75degrees. But it has tabs also.
Check the drawings at wikipedia, can zoom way in...
---------------------------------------------------------------------

You have a clear bias if you think of German aircraft as "the uber" planes.

Ever checked K/D stat's for that poor handicapped German fighters? How can planes that are unlikly to win any combat have one of the highest K/D's ? And that consistently for years?

You two peeps need to be more specific, in game or in history?
Assuming you two mean both, I could say stuff, but I'll let you two argue it out. Imma gain some alth and then bnz the winner.

In I think my 3rd season:
My best in the 190d9 was about 40kills, 40assists, and 0 deaths, maybe 6 ditches and maybe 10 bails, in about 35 flights I think, this is men, I didn't write it down.
To use me old squadies term 'one pass hall ass' method, although many times I flew home all kinds of shot up but still landed.
(no captures, i spent sometimes 2 hours walking back to base. Push and hold R button, then push / and release both. Then go do whatever for about 2 hours, can walk back from just outside enemy base.)
 
Then one day gf called on phone... I mindlessly followed a plane
About 50 feet off the ground, I flew over the center of an enemy base, I was just above where the runways cross, enemy planes everywhere, besides the one I was chasing. All the bases acks we're up. And the planes on the runway facing me. I felt like butch casidy and the sundance kid.
Priorities, after the call, I went to fighter town and totalled me score.

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Another one for ya AH2:
Did ya know that some HP puters that have other 3 extra drivers for their keyboard, for some reason they can type the brackets but the zoom won't adjust the toggled zoom? And that the ` button doesn't work either, so we only see 3 lines of the chat buffer. I went thru the 2week trial without any idea. Eventually I tried to re-assign the keys, well could but still it didn't work. I know now that I must uninstall the 3 drivers everytime I play, if I afk too long, it shuts down and when I wake it up, it installs them back. One of those keyboards with all the buttons and nobs on it.

[Karnak]

Yeah, I'm not too good either.  My best was 34 without being shot down in the Mosquito before I collided with a Spitfire Mk IX while being too aggressive.

Neither of us is in any danger of taking Fishu's crown that he did in the Fw190A-8.