Author Topic: Is gold money?  (Read 1555 times)

Offline Rolex

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Is gold money?
« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2007, 09:17:44 PM »
Here is the warrant: link >>

Offline Shamus

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Is gold money?
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2007, 10:40:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rolex
Here is the warrant: link >>


Thats fine Rolex..but you left out the most important part, the affidavit....
no worry..we are getting used to that:)

shamus
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Offline Fishu

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Is gold money?
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2007, 11:07:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thruster
Minting something like this is not illegal and using it as a "voucher" to establish a transactional value is ok by law but intimating that there's some real monetary value is fraud.


The coins do have better monetary value than the USD itself. Those are printed on precious metals while the USD is either worthless paper or copper and nickel. The platinum, gold and silver coins are worth their weight and respective value in any currency.

Many currencies used to be tied to the value of gold or some other valuable goods. Some centuries ago the value of currency was directly tied to the worth of the metal used in the coins - Although it wasn't a good choice in wide spread use. Eitherway, the coins could have been melt into gold bars and they would've retained the same value.

These coins are equal to platinum, gold and silver. It's the same deal as if you'd be trading with gold bars; Like the very rich people and the governments. They're only in more convenient size and traded at a fixed value rather than by the weight tied to the fluctuating (although relatively steady) market prices of precious metals.

With the constantly inflating value of USD it's a good idea to tie up your fortune in gold or some other goods that retain most of their value through a depression.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2007, 11:09:55 PM by Fishu »

Offline Thruster

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Is gold money?
« Reply #33 on: November 18, 2007, 04:12:21 AM »
The coins do have better monetary value than the USD itself. Those are printed on precious metals while the USD is either worthless paper or copper and nickel. The platinum, gold and silver coins are worth their weight and respective value in any currency.

No they don't. They have intrinsic value based upon the underlying commodity's value. And of course they are worth their weight. In base metal, that's the point. The are not money, look up the definition of "legal Tender".

Many currencies used to be tied to the value of gold or some other valuable goods. Some centuries ago the value of currency was directly tied to the worth of the metal used in the coins - Although it wasn't a good choice in wide spread use. Eitherway, the coins could have been melt into gold bars and they would've retained the same value.

Of course that was before the mechanics of international trade made it completely impractical.

These coins are equal to platinum, gold and silver. It's the same deal as if you'd be trading with gold bars; Like the very rich people and the governments. They're only in more convenient size and traded at a fixed value rather than by the weight tied to the fluctuating (although relatively steady) market prices of precious metals.

You still don't get that currency and commodity values have no business being  pegged. The supply and demand considerations that affects a nation's currency are rarely the same as affect commodities. It's possible that in an inflationary climate (which in moderation is considered healthy) the market demand for say, gold may be weak, which it often is, due to higher interest rates being a more attractive hedge and so forth.  Now your pegged currency is worth less, driving up the relative value of The goods you purchase. Not we get into force fed inflation which is what causes economic depression. Bad Idea, that's why it was abandoned years ago.

With the constantly inflating value of USD it's a good idea to tie up your fortune in gold or some other goods that retain most of their value through a depression.

First off, if the value of U.S.D. is constantly inflating , that would tend to make it a keeper in most investors eyes. Second, the only way a stash of gold will help is if you plan on becoming a refugee. If the domestic economy dives, not only will there be plenty of valuables up for sale, decreasing demand, lowering prices, the money paid will be of decreased value, because the economies shot. a simplistic example I know but it's late. But you see, in a depression EVERYTHING loses it's value.
I think what you meant was constantly DEflating value of the dollar against other major crosses but that's not the case. Exchange rates ebb and flow. It's natural and a sign of a healthy global economy. It's when demand for a currency tanks that's the problem. Especially when it's a major currency like the U.S.D. The way the world's set up at the moment the risk of a U.S.D. meltdown should be the least of our worries. It sucks that going to Europe has gotten more expensive but I'm not all that well traveled so it's not really an issue for me. Basically, it has an impact on the amount of some stuff we can buy but again, that's the nature of the game. Once U.S.D. gets to a level that encourages more longs, that wine will start to get a bit cheaper. That is if fuel costs don't offset the dividend.

Not that long ago another major economy got so weird that short term gov't bonds there were paying a negative
yield. You gave the government  one hundred yen , after a few months you got back something like 99.15 back.(sorta) Bank interest was a whopping 1 percent and people were still willing to lose money than trust a bank's solvency to last a year. the yen was at the time a "strong" currency against the dollar but that was due to a trade deficit. They're still here, apparently doing ok, and so will we.

Offline cpxxx

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Is gold money?
« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2007, 11:23:36 AM »
Don't know the law in the USA is. But the whole money thing is very weird in the United Kingdom.  There are no less than eleven types of pound sterling banknotes. In England and Wales the only the Bank of England can issue banknotes and these are only legal tender in England and Wales and nowhere else in the UK.  In Scotland and Northern Ireland each bank issues it's own notes. These are not legal tender but are 'promissory notes'. In effect vouchers promising that the bearer will receive the sterling equivalent if they go to that bank. In England they rarely accept Scottish or Northern Irish notes in shops but of course English money is taken everywhere even though technically it is not legal tender outside England and Wales:confused: :confused:

English (inc.Wales):
Bank of England

Scottish notes:
Bank of Scotland
Royal Bank of Scotland
Clydesdale Bank

Northern Irish notes:
Northern Bank
First Trust Bank
Ulster Bank
Bank of Ireland

Crown dependencies:
States of Guernsey
States of Jersey
Isle of Man Government

I wonder is the Liberty people are looking for a similar arrangement

Offline 2bighorn

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Is gold money?
« Reply #35 on: November 18, 2007, 12:05:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thruster
No they don't. They have intrinsic value based upon the underlying commodity's value. And of course they are worth their weight. In base metal, that's the point. The are not money, look up the definition of "legal Tender".
Every traded currency is a "commodity". Legal tender is no exception.

Offline Thruster

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Is gold money?
« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2007, 08:14:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by 2bighorn
Every traded currency is a "commodity". Legal tender is no exception.


True, and the pricing is based upon supply/demand for the individual currencies. Not based upon some underlying basis. Ie. the value of corn pegged to the value of wheat.  Why would you want that?

The idea of a national currency's value being dependent on another, commonly traded commodity is just not practical. That's why it's not done.

Offline bsdaddict

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Is gold money?
« Reply #37 on: November 19, 2007, 08:18:48 PM »
If It's Good Enough For Mickey, Why Not For Paul?
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The FBI and U.S. Attorney's office in western North Carolina, which is handling the case, have declined to comment on the raids, but an affidavit filed in Asheville earlier this month describes a two-year long undercover investigation of the group, based partly on evidence obtained by an informant who posed as someone wanting to become a regional associate for the group. The affidavit states the group is being investigated for federal violations including "uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal" and "making of possessing likenesses of coins." "The goal of Norfed is to undermine the United States goverment's financial systems by the issuance of a non-governmental competing currency," the affidavit states.

This argument met with ridicule over the weekend from the prolific on-line network of Ron Paul supporters and sound money advocates, some of whom sarcastically predicted that the feds would next be going after Disneyworld for selling "Disney Dollars" for use inside the amusement park. "Here is a Mickey Mouse coin issued by that criminal, separatist organization, the Walt Disney Corporation. Did someone fail Common Sense 101?" wrote one commenter on the Post's Web site, offering a link to an image of the offending Mickey dubloon. Wrote another, "With commemorative coins advertised in every Sunday newspaper, and given the Donald Duck silver coins sold at Disney Land, this is an obvious attack on Ron Paul, a legitimate Presidential candidate, by the Federal Government. I am going to respond by going to Ron Paul's web site, easily found with Google, and giving $100 today."

Offline Thrawn

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Is gold money?
« Reply #38 on: November 20, 2007, 07:07:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thruster
Of course that was before the mechanics of international trade made it completely impractical.


What made it impractical is that DeGaul wanted Nixon to pay of the accruing US trade deficit in gold and Nixon simply didn't want to.  It was a con nothing more.



Quote
You still don't get that currency and commodity values have no business being  pegged. The supply and demand considerations that affects a nation's currency are rarely the same as affect commodities. It's possible that in an inflationary climate (which in moderation is considered healthy) the market demand for say, gold may be weak, which it often is, due to higher interest rates being a more attractive hedge and so forth.  Now your pegged currency is worth less, driving up the relative value of The goods you purchase. Not we get into force fed inflation which is what causes economic depression. Bad Idea, that's why it was abandoned years ago.


I can't believe that you are actually arguing that a commodity back currency is more likely to inflate compared to fiat currency.  History seems to have proven  otherwise.  Commodity backed currency inflation limited by the scarcity of the commodity.  Fiat currency is limited only by the will of they who control the printing press.


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But you see, in a depression EVERYTHING loses it's value.


Absolutely not.  In a depression everything might lose it's book value domestically, but it keeps it's inherent value.  Thus it can be a medium of exchange.


Quote
The way the world's set up at the moment the risk of a U.S.D. meltdown should be the least of our worries.


The risk of the USD hyper-inflating  is present and growing.  I have been documenting some of thoughts on it in another thread....

http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=165716


Quote
the yen was at the time a "strong" currency against the dollar but that was due to a trade deficit. They're still here, apparently doing ok, and so will we.


I don't know what Japan's current account balance was during this time, but it wasn't anywhere near as bad as the US's.

Offline Thruster

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Is gold money?
« Reply #39 on: November 20, 2007, 10:57:13 AM »
Thrawn,

Long before Nixon and DeGaul, the challenge of establishing timely exchange values was one of the most significant impediments to efficient international trade. Acceptance became the principle consideration when establishing a particular currency's exchange value. A troubled economy with little international acceptance was more volatile than the money of a stable, global power irrespective of precious metal reserves. The more volatility, the harder it is to establish financial agreements that may take years to complete. Consequently the larger, more stable economies posses liquidity and demand, a far more efficient method of establishing value.

Let's just say that we go back to a monetary system limited by domestic gold reserves. We know that the value of the planet's monetary supply far exceeds the value of gold currently in circulation and keeps increasing. Even after we mine all the  gold in existence we'll still be short by today's values. So now we have to re-value gold. It would be ok if it ended there but you see, there's always more "value" added to the world's asset pool, it has to be accounted for now by more gold in the vaults. Now we can't do that, we need to de-vaulue gold, now current assets are worth less, or they need to be re-valued. I can imagine what would happen to mortgages, interest bearing deposits, bonds and such but what happens when some genius decides to push a market around ala the Hunt bros.vs. silver or Soros and the G.B.P.? Although my mouth waters at the arbitrage opportunities, I can't see it as a healthy environment. Oh yeah, we'd also have to go back to federalizing precious metals. Brass wedding rings anyone?

In a depression everything loses value, and not equally. Staples become much more valuable versus non-essentials like gold,  gemstones, or art. In the event of a depression one of the first victims would be a precious metal basis for currency valuation.

Regarding U.S.D. hyper inflation, as long as the U.S. maintains it's relative position in the global economy, demand for U.S.D. will be strong. One of the main factors in the ascendancy of the Euro involved yield curves, Euro based debt was cheaper than dollar based loans. Internationally, this made it an attractive instrument of exchange for obvious reasons. As demand grew, it became beneficial to hold Euro based assets as their exchange value increased. This can't go on forever and one hopes the E.U. member countries can keep it together long enough to truly homogenize the pan European economy. Nevertheless, backing the dollar with adequate gold reserves won't contribute much to that environment.

And finally,
Japan's current accounts have always been on the whole, negative with most of it's other trade partners. It's an import based economy. Few natural reserves and little economic sphere of influence. The trade deficit speaks to how much we buy from them against what we sell. At the time the yen was slipping against all the majors due to their need to acquire goods from external sources to keep their economy running. Often paid with dollars.
If I'm not mistaken, Japanese corporations are required to certify their books twice a year, at that time they are required to have a certain percentage of their assets in yen based equity. This causes a significant repatriation of yen in financial markets, boosting value. Combined with heavily protectionist trade practices, these policies enable the Japanese M.O.F. modulate currency values  to prevent substantial Yen devaluation against other issues. We don't have the same privilege and I suspect don't want it for too many reasons to list here.

Offline P0G0

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Is gold money?
« Reply #40 on: November 20, 2007, 11:49:53 AM »
just for some comic relief

Bernard von Nuthouse

plus knowing that he is a monetary Architect makes me want to buy,invest,or just plain have fun as this qoute from the website proves

"The three best reasons to use the Liberty Dollar: Have fun, do good, earn money.

First, it's FUN. You'll have merchants asking lots of questions, friends gathering around to see the currency, and you can become an expert on money - all by getting some Liberty Dollars.

Second, it's good for your community. As a community currency, Liberty Dollars don't disappear, so when you spend them, they stay in the local economy. Plus, Liberty Dollars are inflation-proof and debt-free REAL money, so they're good for America.

Third, it's profitable to become a Liberty Associate or a Liberty Merchant. Plus using the Liberty Dollar will attract new business, generate advertising, and build a loyal customer base around the Liberty Dollar! And by giving out the Liberty Dollar in change, you can earn more!"

Ok now you can go back to being serious either way

Offline VonMessa

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Is gold money?
« Reply #41 on: November 20, 2007, 12:42:40 PM »
Gold is gold is gold.  ( or any other precious metal)

1 oz. of gold weighs 1 oz. no matter where you go in the world.  What it is worth depends where you go, how much its in demand, and how valuable is it at any given moment.  I'll bet that there are places in the world that 1 oz. of gold is more valuable than the USD equivalent.  I am willing to bet that I could trade that oz. of gold for commodities in more places than I could the USD.

     How much US currency can be printed until it starts to have less and less value.  Don't have enough?  Crunch all you like, well make more! (hope I don't get sued by Doritos)

     Value, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.  As when one sells an item on E-bay, the value of said item is limited to the worth of said item as viewed the person purchasing it.

    I believe that in a global view, the less we back up our own currency, less value it will eventually have in the worlds economy.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2007, 01:33:43 PM by VonMessa »
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Offline BaldEagl

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Is gold money?
« Reply #42 on: November 20, 2007, 12:57:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tiger
Well I guess I'm gonna fire up the ole laptop tonight and start printing Tigers (sounds like a good name fr a currency).  I'll make them in denominations of 1, 3, 7, and 12 Tigers.  (Just to be unique).  I then think I will convince all the local gas stations and grocery stores to accept my Tigers and get everyone in the area envolved in switch from USD's to Tigers.  As far as coinage goes, I guess I can go get so steel sheets and a dye punch and crete them too.  I hate pennies so I figure I'll use .02, .15, .30, and .50.  Those seem pretty good choice to me.  I will then proceed to create an entirely arbitrary exhange rate for USD's to Dollars.


Good luck with that then.
I edit a lot of my posts.  Get used to it.

Offline Fishu

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Is gold money?
« Reply #43 on: November 20, 2007, 01:45:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by VonMessa
Gold is gold is gold.  ( or any other precious metal)

1 oz. of gold weighs 1 oz. no matter where you go in the world.  What it is worth depends where you go, how much its in demand, and how valuable is it at any given moment.  I'll bet that there are places in the world that 1 oz. of gold is more valuable than the USD equivalent.  I am willing to bet that I could trade that oz. of gold for commodities in more places than I could the USD.


The value of gold is pretty much the same everywhere in the world because it is also used as a currency. The governments doesn't have sizeable gold reserves for nothing.

Offline Bingolong

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Is gold money?
« Reply #44 on: November 20, 2007, 02:24:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thruster
The way the world's set up at the moment the risk of a U.S.D. meltdown should be the least of our worries


The world trades in dollars becuase of a US deal with opec. What if opec start trading in euros. then what?

1 euro > .68 dollar as of yesterday