Author Topic: 1984... no wait 2007... (yoohoo lazs)  (Read 1135 times)

Offline Vulcan

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1984... no wait 2007... (yoohoo lazs)
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2007, 05:09:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Furball
The searches are because of this, and i guess to try and have a visible deterrent to would be suicide bombers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_bombings

Maybe if people were blowing themselves up on your trains and buses you would have something similar, Vulcan & Thrawn?

Why not bring up some of the security practices in Israel?

The regularity of these things is usually linked to the current security threat level.  They do searches entering some buildings too when the threat level is high.


You think searching people coming out that specifically do not meet the profile of suicide bombers is going to work?

Offline Boroda

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1984... no wait 2007... (yoohoo lazs)
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2007, 06:10:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Furball
The searches are because of this, and i guess to try and have a visible deterrent to would be suicide bombers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_bombings

Maybe if people were blowing themselves up on your trains and buses you would have something similar, Vulcan & Thrawn?

Why not bring up some of the security practices in Israel?

The regularity of these things is usually linked to the current security threat level.  They do searches entering some buildings too when the threat level is high.


As if other countries don't suffer from terrorist attacks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_apartment_bombings - just a small episode in our war.

Using metal detector frames is quite different from searching someone in the street without proper procedure that involves witnesses and protocol.

You guys, if you really want to fight terrorism, first have to explain your authorities that they have to extradite convinced terrorists that they host now.

Offline Boroda

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1984... no wait 2007... (yoohoo lazs)
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2007, 06:41:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
boroda...  I am not sure what you mean.   you are on this board and you speak and read almost flawless english..  

Can't you just follow the links that I have given?    in this case.. all it does is take you to sites that quote some of ayn's works of non fiction.
 


Lazs, thank you for compliments about my English, but I read at least 50 pages an hour in Russian, and reading English texts from the screen is uncomfortable for me :(

Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
If your research into your sources is as incomplete as the horrible jack london stuff..  

Well... I would say that you are a willing victim of censorship and propoganda.

can you not go to the sites linked?  


I have checked London's bio that I have (published in 1954), they didn't mention what you asked me about. An article focuses on literature, but some sentences are amazing if you remember our discussion. They mentioned his late novels as "unnatural and escapistic happy ends" of "going back to the land". And they said that London never was a true Socialist, and accused him of bourgeois individualism!!! :)

Again, I am sure that all the things you said are described in "Life of Outstanding People" series book on London. Such information wasn't censored, it simply wasn't in mainstream media and schoolbooks. You could easily find it. Like 99.9% of Americans don't know anything about Moscow apartment bombings of 1999 (see my Wiki link above), and this information isn't censored in the West.

I'll look at your links, probably later. I bookmarked it.

Just curious, thinking of people who's works influenced me and probably contradict Ayn Rand. Have you ever heard of Lev Gumilev? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lev_Gumilev

Hmmm just have read that article - very "shallow" :(

Offline 2bighorn

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1984... no wait 2007... (yoohoo lazs)
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2007, 06:59:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Furball
The searches are because of this, and i guess to try and have a visible deterrent to would be suicide bombers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_bombings

Maybe if people were blowing themselves up on your trains and buses you would have something similar, Vulcan & Thrawn?

Why not bring up some of the security practices in Israel?

The regularity of these things is usually linked to the current security threat level.  They do searches entering some buildings too when the threat level is high.
Oh c'mon. There's absolutely nothing what could justify commitment of any country, anywhere, in anytime, to such Orwellian measures.

If this is result of your "War On Terror", then you've already lost big time (not that here is any better).

Oh, and pointing finger with "they did it too" is retarded...

Offline Thrawn

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1984... no wait 2007... (yoohoo lazs)
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2007, 10:30:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Furball
Maybe if people were blowing themselves up on your trains and buses you would have something similar, Vulcan & Thrawn?


Nope.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_Crisis

The crisis happened, we dealt with it, we moved on.


Make sure you have your mandatory identity papers read Furball.

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1009_22-6055964.html



I'm sorry to see the motherland turn into such a nation of sheep.

Offline lazs2

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1984... no wait 2007... (yoohoo lazs)
« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2007, 08:46:37 AM »
boroda.. oddly.. I have heard of him.. he is mentioned in some of the non fiction works of ayn rand (as I recall).

obviously, I am oversimplifying here but..  he is using racism as an excuse to take away individual freedom... as if a huge and powerful socialist government could wipe out racism.

no government, including capitalistic ones can wipe out racism.. the best we can hope for is individualism that is protected by a strong bill of rights.  

all government uses racism as an excuse to further their power.

just as terror or.. threat of terror, is used to take away individual liberties.. for illegal search and seizure for instance.. to use military to attack groups of citizens.. as in waco for instance.

Libertarianism is a great start but falls short of individualism..  think of libertarianism as individualism light.. think of individualists as less wimpy libertarians.

There is no excuse for socialism.   if the country won't support individualism (and I don't think that is possible) then leave that country or part of it.   it is not worth having.. how is the end justifying the means working in such a case?   live like a slave in a terrible land that won't support you?  You don't try to grow crops in the desert.  you don't try to have a good life in the permafrost.

lazs

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2007, 11:43:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
boroda.. oddly.. I have heard of him.. he is mentioned in some of the non fiction works of ayn rand (as I recall).

obviously, I am oversimplifying here but..  he is using racism as an excuse to take away individual freedom... as if a huge and powerful socialist government could wipe out racism.

no government, including capitalistic ones can wipe out racism.. the best we can hope for is individualism that is protected by a strong bill of rights.  

all government uses racism as an excuse to further their power.


Well, racism is the last thing Lev Gumilev can be accused of. Maybe you have read about his Father, Nikolay, he's like a Russian Kipling.

Accusing Lev Gumilev of antisemitism is pretty silly. He's just describing facts, and makes conclusions that are quite obvious. Khazars existed, and were destroyed by Sviatoslaw, father of prince Vladimir. Waging a war on a country that took "dannegeld" (sp?) from Kiev doesn't depend on religion of their elite.

Gumilev's theory may be called a "historical existencialism". He also tried to explain ethnic development with changing natural conditions, both man-induced or not.

A historian who saw Mongols as Russian allies, not only as murdering invaders can't be a racist.

Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
just as terror or.. threat of terror, is used to take away individual liberties.. for illegal search and seizure for instance.. to use military to attack groups of citizens.. as in waco for instance.

Libertarianism is a great start but falls short of individualism..  think of libertarianism as individualism light.. think of individualists as less wimpy libertarians.

There is no excuse for socialism.   if the country won't support individualism (and I don't think that is possible) then leave that country or part of it.   it is not worth having.. how is the end justifying the means working in such a case?   live like a slave in a terrible land that won't support you?  You don't try to grow crops in the desert.  you don't try to have a good life in the permafrost.


Lazs, you contradict historical facts here. My country reached it's power and prosperity under Socialism, and Capitalism brings nothing but suffering, decay and starvation.

BTW, I think you'll like Lenin's definition of "state": it's a system of suppressing a personality. Anything else is just a "cosmetic" difference between states.

There are some really interesting books that I don't think were translated into English. Like Prokhorov's "Russian model of administration", it explains a lot. Russian system operates in extra-large scale (regime, Czar or Politburo), and in extra-small scale: a community that is self-administrated inside and usually fights with Big Brother. Rational form of it is when Big Brother doesn't interfere inside a community, and issues tasks that community finds easier to implement then to sabotage. OTOH community usually understands that such tasks are a matter of survival as a nation (that allows community's existence), and finds it own ways to act in emergencies. Emergencies are a natural state to make system effective, in relative prosperity system degrades quickly. I hope you can see irony of it.

BTW, Ayn Rand was a Jew from Russia. Jews were not involved into a system I described above, as well as other national minorities, until the Revolution. I hope you understand why.

Offline lazs2

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1984... no wait 2007... (yoohoo lazs)
« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2007, 02:49:35 PM »
not sure we are understanding each other.   I was not saying he was a racist.. just the reverse in fact.  I did not accuse him of antisemitism either.

I don't see how capitalism has caused suffering.. england and the US have been two of the most prosperous countries in the world under the system with very high standards of living.    

I also do not understand why jews were not involved in the system you describe.

I believe that communism was always doomed in russia.   I believe that it could not be sustained and that history proves me right.    I believe people need to think they can move up in the world through hard work or they simply pretend to work and the government pretends to pay em... as the old saying goes.

communism is apathy and the destruction of hope to me.  perhaps it is because I never have had to endure it but... it would crush me.   ayn rand and many others who fled communism have compared living under both capitalism and communism and they all say about the same thing.

lazs

Offline moot

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1984... no wait 2007... (yoohoo lazs)
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2007, 03:03:16 AM »
My father went to Russia in the late 80s and early 90s, once for 1 year at a time, to work in a number of different microanalysis labs, including one next to the Baikal lake, in Moscow, and others I can't remember.  He brought back a ton of communist memorabilia (pins of lenin, military officers' caps, money bills and coins, etc) and a lot of stories.
He said it wasn't too bad, but the state was everywhere.  He was followed, from the customs all the way to his hotel room. Twice the person who happened to be following him came into the room.  The first time he woke up as he was already looking through his luggage.  The second time he was ready and had to point a gun at the guy for him to retreat.
There was a lot of partying (orgies apparently not taboo at all)...  People seemed happy, but that's probably not a guarantee of anything, considering how masses of people can be conditioned to mediocre or worse lifestyles and/or standards of living.  The state was taboo.

There is nothing more unfair and absurd than to take from someone the fruits of his labor. It's Sisyphus ad nauseum.
Capitalism is indeed a blind and pitiless survival of the fitest. But I and anyont with a minimum of lucidity wouldn't have it any other way.. You only get as good as you give. The better you treat yourself, the better work repays you.  I personaly don't want others to pay for my expenses or needs, the same way I wouldn't consider it fair for someone to take what I earned on my own.
It would be such a miserable thing as you say Boroda, if not for the fact that health and professional success are a positive feedback loop.  The only common weakness of capitalism that I see is people abusing others (e.g. outsmarting them into bankrupcy) or themselves (not having the drive to turn adversity into success).
But these are human nature, not capitalism's doing. Capitalism just highlights these human flaws.

You might say that this has nothing to do with communism, like you have many times already, not just to me... If so, then where does true Communism as you knew it stand, relative to this?  Does it allow or intend to take from people what they've worked for?  Does it not choose for an individual what he should do?
Not to be confused with what can seem like the "market"'s initial difficulty to tame, that is, taking care of yourself in a capitalistic free for all...  

"No one's gonna give it to ya.. You have to take it."

Apologies for the freakin derail Vulcan. :p
« Last Edit: November 17, 2007, 03:14:26 AM by moot »
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Offline lazs2

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1984... no wait 2007... (yoohoo lazs)
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2007, 10:10:11 AM »
moot... that is about how I feel about it.   and.. with the same end result... I wouldn't have it any other way.   I could not live with someone looking over my shoulder.  I would do something stupid.. or.. I would try to escape.

Here..  I have talked to people who will not work.  their excuse is.. "it is easy for you but...  I really can't get up in the morning...it is just impossible for me."

I resent that any of my tax dollar goes to these people.  why should it?   Is supporting this person really compassion?

lazs