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Author Topic: Croatial rifle  (Read 1929 times)

Offline Viking

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« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2007, 05:57:42 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
You talking about the girl or the gun now?


lol, I'd love to clean her ... every nook and crannie! ;)
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Offline eagl

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« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2007, 11:18:36 PM »
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Originally posted by Suave
The butt stocks on the m16a1s and a2s are very solid, I'm not sure what they're made out of but it's very durable and has some heft. The old handguards on the other hand...


Yea.  That's pretty much my point.  The original weapon requirements for the m-16 obviously didn't include the ability to whack someone with the rifle butt so this had to be part of a later revision.  Looking at the new rifle that is the subject of this post, and looking at the location of the magazine, I wonder if the designers have accounted for the fact that the gun will on occasion be used as a club, and the person to whom the gun was issued will probably want it to continue functioning after being used in such a manner.

I know I'd be rather perturbed if I had to whack someone with the gun butt, the magazine got in the way and got bent, resulting in the rifle suddenly becoming about as useful as a cricket bat with a bayonet.
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Offline Motherland

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« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2007, 11:35:06 PM »
What Im most surprised about is that STANAG magazines are still predominately stamped metal... The Soviets have been making plastic magazines since what, the 60's? Plastic magazines are obviously lighter and probably stand up to combat better, since plastic 'gives' and then goes back to its original shape, as opposed to metal magazines, whice will dent/bend and then become useless...
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Offline Suave

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« Reply #33 on: November 24, 2007, 03:06:42 AM »
If you made stanag mags out of plastic the plastic would have to be as thin as the steel is, so it wouldn't be very strong I think. Although, the g36 uses plastic mags but I've never had my hands on them so I don't know what they're like.

The bakelite and polymer ak mags are still metal at the part that connects with the rifle. They are heavier than stanag mags but I'm sure more durable.
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Offline red26

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« Reply #34 on: November 24, 2007, 05:21:00 AM »
The butt of the M16-a2 is pretty durable. We were at the range one time in Germany and there was a former Ranger there one of the regular Pfc,'s  said something to the Ranger and the fight was on. Funny the Ranger gave the whole company a lesson on just how strong the butt stock was of the M16-a2. When we finally got the fight broke up the Pfc, was going to the hospital and the Ranger was on his way to the stockade. The M16-a2 was still in one piece.I'm glad the bayonet wasn't on the weapon it wold have been a murder charge. The only thing that was funny nether one of the soldiers used there hands  to fight with they both used there rifles. It was like watching bayonet training all over again. Both of the soldiers landed some good strikes but the Ranger won of course.

And on another note thats a fine looking weapon but you can never beat the Kalashnikov AK-47 one of the few weapons you can treat like hell and it will still save your life.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2007, 05:25:27 AM by red26 »
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Offline culero

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« Reply #35 on: November 24, 2007, 05:56:48 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by eagl
snip
I know I'd be rather perturbed if I had to whack someone with the gun butt, the magazine got in the way and got bent, resulting in the rifle suddenly becoming about as useful as a cricket bat with a bayonet.


What I am having trouble with here is this - if you have any rounds left in the magazine, why would you want to whack someone with the butt? If there are no rounds left in the magazine, why not eject it?
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Offline Suave

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« Reply #36 on: November 24, 2007, 06:18:04 AM »
Wow, attacking somebody at the rifle range. I'm assuming this didn't happen on the firing line since the range nco didn't shoot him. Now you know why the ranger bat DX'd him.

Did he hit the guy because he wasn't wearing his kevlar? In the states that's a big deal, if range controll sees people not wearing their kevlars at a range they'll close the range.
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Offline Pooh21

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« Reply #37 on: November 24, 2007, 06:57:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by culero
What I am having trouble with here is this - if you have any rounds left in the magazine, why would you want to whack someone with the butt? If there are no rounds left in the magazine, why not eject it?


There is always a needed reason to have the ability to bash someones melon in with the butt end of a rifle.
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Offline KgB

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« Reply #38 on: November 24, 2007, 08:45:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by culero
What I am having trouble with here is this - if you have any rounds left in the magazine, why would you want to whack someone with the butt? If there are no rounds left in the magazine, why not eject it?

Exactly,you will always have all the time you need to eject the clip:noid
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Offline eagl

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« Reply #39 on: November 24, 2007, 09:08:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by culero
What I am having trouble with here is this - if you have any rounds left in the magazine, why would you want to whack someone with the butt? If there are no rounds left in the magazine, why not eject it?


When a guy wearing the wrong uniform jumps into your foxhole with you, or you walk around some shrubbery or a tree and again some guy with the wrong uniform is right there in your face, you may not be able to physically get the rifle pointed at the guy.  In those cases, butt stroke, butt smash, bayonet stab could be the most appropriate drill.

Then when he's lying on the ground, back off a few feet and empty the mag into the bastage.

It's a bit like air to air combat... you carry around missiles and don't PLAN on getting into a visual BFM engagement where you have to use your gun, but things don't always go according to plan and if you arrive in a knife fight and you're the one dude without a knife...
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Offline culero

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« Reply #40 on: November 24, 2007, 09:55:00 AM »
Good points both KGB and eagl. Counterpoints:

If the mag is empty and in extremis you don't have time to eject it, sounds like a time when you might not need to worry about bending it.

Knowing you have a weapon configured like this one, you may wish to develop a training doctrine that teaches the buttstroke as delivered with the side of the butt rather than the bottom. That way the mag isn't likely to interfere.

Even more cogent is the fact that the configuration of the weapon itself takes close quarters engagement into account. The advantage to the receiver being behind the grip is that less of the weapon protrudes to the front. This not only allows a smaller profile for the shooter (less weapon protruding forward) for better concealment, but in close quarters its going to be much easier to bring the muzzle to bear on targets.

This last point allows me to agree with your last point, eagl...I'd rather shoot than stroke or stab. A weapon of conventional design is less likely to allow me to do that in a foxhole.
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Offline Shaky

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« Reply #41 on: November 24, 2007, 10:02:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
Bayonets never need reloading.  ;)  Most likely, you'll never need it, but the one time you do, you'll regret it not being there.  In the meantime, it can be used for all the useful things a good knife is needed for.


The most recent Bayonet Charge


Gotta love them British Highlanders!
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Offline red26

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« Reply #42 on: November 24, 2007, 10:10:16 AM »
Wow, attacking somebody at the rifle range. I'm assuming this didn't happen on the firing line since the range nco didn't shoot him. Now you know why the ranger bat DX'd him.

Did he hit the guy because he wasn't wearing his Kevlar? In the states that's a big deal, if range control sees people not wearing their Kevlar at a range they'll close the range.- by Suave

Not sure why the fight started. And no it wasn't on the firing line or the range NCO would have shot him. It happen in the staging area that was about 100yrd's from the firing line.  I think that it was over a girl not for sure though. The Pfc, was wearing  his cake pot before the Ranger got a hold  of him. I saw the first blow because it started with some choice words as I looked up the big pop happened  I guess the Pfc, didn't have his helmet strap buttoned up because it went flying off. the Ranger left his on so any strikes on him was just body shots. this happen in Grafenwoehr Germany.
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Offline Pooh21

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« Reply #43 on: November 24, 2007, 11:03:17 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by culero

Knowing you have a weapon configured like this one, you may wish to develop a training doctrine that teaches the buttstroke as delivered with the side of the butt rather than the bottom. That way the mag isn't likely to interfere.
.


Ever swing a slab sided object? Feel the air resistance? Plus the wider surface area spreads energy out when it does hit.
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Offline Suave

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« Reply #44 on: November 24, 2007, 02:38:31 PM »
Sounds like it was a good show. When I was in field arty we used to get FOs DX'd from ranger bat. Some of them were good soldiers with bum knees and stuff, but some of them were just 8 up sweetheart bags.
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