Author Topic: What is a Militia?  (Read 20450 times)

Offline Bingolong

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 330
What is a Militia?
« Reply #375 on: December 07, 2007, 03:09:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
I deleted everything that didn't relate to my point.

Of course there is an argument! Here is 311 one more time:

(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia."


If well regulated means the same as organized then (b)(1) is saying you are wrong.



Man now that is harsh :) But I see what MT is saying he must be a teacher cause that was short and sweet :O :aok could of saved me 15 pages.

What I am saying there is both But:
Both are well regulated have orginazation and registered with the state.
(1) National guard etc..
(2) An "organization" registered with the state as a militia that is well regulated. So YOU laz could go to the state register your militia, get members, train be regulated, have a commanding officer, rules that you abide by, run around through the woods etc.... But we have seen how that is looked at haven't we, "the People". I think you have been avoiding it actually.

But if it needs regulating in the 1st place :confused:  Not much room from there.

Thanks Midnight Target

And training is part of a militia.

Offline midnight Target

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15114
What is a Militia?
« Reply #376 on: December 07, 2007, 03:26:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
in 41 law review articles published since 1980... only four do not subscribe to the individual right model.  
lazs


hehe..

But lazs, you hate this argument when it pertains to global warming.

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
What is a Militia?
« Reply #377 on: December 07, 2007, 03:41:43 PM »
Not at all..  despite the fact that science is not about concensus...  of the last 500 or so peer reviewed articles on global warming.. it is obvious that more and more are either rejecting man made global warming entirely or saying that they really don't know... only 7% are adamant that it is man made and catastrophic.

still.. as I said..science is not about consensus...  law and the constitution... more so.

Read the article.. I don't really agree with the guy.. he says that gun control laws are legal... that the "bearing" part can be restricted (or not) by the states.. he believes in "reasonable" gun control.. I do not.

lazs

Offline Holden McGroin

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8591
What is a Militia?
« Reply #378 on: December 07, 2007, 03:41:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
hehe..

But lazs, you hate this argument when it pertains to global warming.


Nice barb there MT, but...

Not to put words into Lazs' mouth, but science and the law are two different concepts.  One stresses provable logic, independant experimentation, and veriviable data, and one stresses precedant.
Holden McGroin LLC makes every effort to provide accurate and complete information. Since humor, irony, and keen insight may be foreign to some readers, no warranty, expressed or implied is offered. Re-writing this disclaimer cost me big bucks at the lawyer’s office!

Offline AKIron

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13416
What is a Militia?
« Reply #379 on: December 07, 2007, 03:41:57 PM »
Should the SC rule incorrectly next summer we may just have to get us a new ammendment, or a new SC.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
What is a Militia?
« Reply #380 on: December 07, 2007, 03:50:51 PM »
we may be getting into semantics here.. militia is the only term defined by the code that is in the amendment.. no where in the amendment does it say "organized" nor does it say that the militia is the condition to the right.

I believe I gave you a lot of leeway by allowing, for the sake of arguement, that the need for a militia was the reason for the the right..    I do not in any way say it is conditional to the right.

To simply call out a reason for a right does not mean that it is the condition for it.

To say that " a well educated public being necessary to the security of a state, the right of the people to assemble and to have free speech shall not be infringed" for instance would not mean that only the well educated could assemble or have free speech to you would it?

lazs

Offline midnight Target

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15114
What is a Militia?
« Reply #381 on: December 07, 2007, 04:23:11 PM »
Well darnit, I was certain I would change lazs' mind about the 2nd amendment. What a shocker.

Offline wrag

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3499
What is a Militia?
« Reply #382 on: December 07, 2007, 04:48:36 PM »
Well when you start talkin about militia you can always look at what the founders wrote..............



[Ah, Congress: Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American... The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state government, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people. — Tench Coxe, Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788]


"Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American." - Tench Coxe, of Pennsylvania, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788


"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them." - George Mason, during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution (1788)


"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington


"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that the people preserve the spirit of resistance?" - Thomas Jefferson, 1787


"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed- unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." - James Madison


As Thomas Paine once asked, —¦If a thief breaks into my house, burns and destroys my property, and kills or threatens to kill me, or those that are in it, and to 'bind me in all cases whatsoever' to his absolute will, am I to suffer it?" To say one must allow such destruction of one's life, liberty and property, and to not allow for the means to protect such rights, is to say that the individual does not hold these natural rights, and that whoever holds the power shall decide what "rights" will be granted. Such an idea is preposterous.


"The said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms." - Samuel Adams, U.S. Constitution ratification convention, 1788





You can also look at what has been said by the, perhaps, more honest politicians...




"The right is absolute ... government has no authority to forbid me from owning a firearm ... the debate is not about guns. It is about freedom." - Cal. State Sen. Tom McClintock, 6/9/2001



"The fundamental force behind the Second Amendment is to empower the people and give them the greatest measure of authority over the tyranny of runaway government." - U.S. Rep. Bob Schaffer, 2002


GUN CONTROL: "The gun control debate generally ignores the historical and philosophical underpinnings of the Second amendment. The Second amendment is not about hunting deer or keeping a pistol in your nightstand. It is not about protecting oneself against common criminals. It is about preventing tyranny. The Founders knew that unarmed citizens would never be able to overthrow a tyrannical government as they did. They envisioned government as a servant, not a master, of the American people. The muskets they used against the British Army were the assault rifles of that time. It is practical, rather than alarmist, to understand that unarmed citizens cannot be secure in their freedoms." -- libertarian U.S. Congressman Ron Paul (R-TX), "Gun Control on the Back Burner," Nov. 6, 2006.




There are many that have done their best to say things like the following I present only one, but the one I pick says VERY much............



"If someone is so fearful that, that they're going to start using their weapons to protect their rights, it makes me very nervous that these people have these weapons at all!"~~Rep. Henry Waxman (D-Calif.) On MSNBC
It's been said we have three brains, one cobbled on top of the next. The stem is first, the reptilian brain; then the mammalian cerebellum; finally the over developed cerebral cortex.  They don't work together in awfully good harmony - hence ax murders, mobs, and socialism.

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
What is a Militia?
« Reply #383 on: December 07, 2007, 05:00:52 PM »
think of it this way mt... if a well regulated militia is needed.. and if militia is as is described everywhere.. the entire body of the people then...

regardless of the second part.. the "right of the people to keep and bear arms" part...

If the militia is not "well regulated".. it certainly is not my fault.   my guns are well regulated.. anything beyond that is the fault of the state..  It is they who are in violation of the spirit of the amendment by not providing what you deem to be proper regulation of the militia... the unorganized part in any case...  they are not providing proper training to the entire body of the people who are.... the militia.

But I must ask.. you just bought a bolt action rifle... wwII  russian nagant...

This is a very powerful repeater more powerful in fact that an "assault weapon"

a virtual snipers rifle shooting armor piercing rounds.. in the wrong hands.. the "potential" for destruction is immense.

Would you think it reasonable to ban such a weapon?

Ultimately the DC case is a good one.

For years the gun rights guys have been screaming "no more" and felt that while some reasonable restrictions would not be too onerous... we have always felt that the gun control nuts are never going to be happy without a complete ban of everything...

Laws like DC and such are proof we were right.. we didn't say much because...hey.. who the hell cares what happens in a craphole like DC or detroit anyway?  they have about gone feral anyway but...

The gun control nuts never give up.. they really will not be happy till they have made it impossible to own any firearms of any real use in defense against thugs both foreign and domestic.  

What DC did was skirt it.. they said.."oh..you can have guns they just have to be all apart with no ammo for em..what is wrong with that?  that's reasonable?"

The court said..rightly, that a gun in pieces was no gun at all.   This is how bad it had to get before someone stepped in.

I would simply love to have the line drawn and some rights upheld..  I would like to set the gun grabbers back a few decades and make em regroup... sure as hell... we aint never gonna stop em cause they know what is best for us and they will never admit otherwise.   They hate and fear guns and people having that right... that will never change.   Some people are just like that..

lazs

Offline midnight Target

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15114
What is a Militia?
« Reply #384 on: December 07, 2007, 06:04:27 PM »
Actually I own 2 nagants now.

Offline john9001

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9453
What is a Militia?
« Reply #385 on: December 07, 2007, 06:13:56 PM »
Hoplophobia, fear of weapons.

Offline Charon

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3705
What is a Militia?
« Reply #386 on: December 07, 2007, 08:42:52 PM »
Quote
Actually I own 2 nagants now.


What's your second one?

Charon

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
What is a Militia?
« Reply #387 on: December 08, 2007, 10:13:37 AM »
glad you do mt.. do you think you have a right to keep em or is it up to bingalong make that decision for ya?

I am pretty sure that if the SC speaks of the second in this case they will do like they always have and call it an individual right in the text of the case.   Not sure what changes will happen.. if the people win over the government it will probly just mean that states and cities can't ban guns or make us keep em in a useless state.

The second did not make up a right.. the right to keep and bear arms... The right already existed before the constitution.. the amendment merely pointed out that it was a right and was not to be infringed.

If that is not the meaning then the amendment was a waste of space.   much like englands... in england.. you had the right to keep and bear arms... .so long as the government said it was ok... as you can see... a worthless (for the people) waste of ink.

I think a lot of liberals that don't like the second are a little scared of the second being a "collective" and worthless right... of "the people" meaning just  the state.   the liberals like some gurantees that the freedoms they like are protected.


lazs

Offline Bingolong

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 330
What is a Militia?
« Reply #388 on: December 08, 2007, 11:03:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
"glad you do mt.. do you think you have a right to keep em or is it up to bingalong make that decision for ya?"


Lazetta,
Your gonna trip on yourself again

"The second did not make up a right.. the right to keep and bear arms... The right already existed before the constitution.. the amendment merely pointed out that it was a right and was not to be infringed."

Where did you get that right.... "The king"
and then you say

"If that is not the meaning then the amendment was a waste of space.   much like englands... in england.. you had the right to keep and bear arms... .so long as the government said it was ok... as you can see... a worthless (for the people) waste of ink."

:rofl

Thanks

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
What is a Militia?
« Reply #389 on: December 08, 2007, 11:14:46 AM »
bingie...   what are you going on about?    The right preexisted the constitution.   People were armed in America.


Are you saying that there are no rights save those that some government gives us?    I believe that you are.    By your reasoning it was even more important to call out the right of the people to keep and bear arms since the Americans.. the founders had a profound distrust of strong government.  

It would seem that you are proving my point.. that the founders felt that the right to keep and bear arms was so fundamental that they wanted to make sure that no central government could infringe on it... that they were not happy with simply hoping the king would allow them to keep and bear arms.

As was shown... they were right.. the english lost all their rights because.. the way their was written.. it was never a right in the first place.  It was a whim of the government.

If you look at the states constitutions at the time it is easy to see that the people of America were not in the least happy with leaving it up to the government.

lazs