Author Topic: C-162 Skycatcher  (Read 1151 times)

Offline Chairboy

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« on: November 30, 2007, 10:00:26 AM »
As the 'zomg its made in chinas!' thread was hogjacked, I'm starting one about the plane itself.

So...  Cessna's LSA plane is coming, but I have some doubts about it.  I'm curious what other folks think.  Instead of a general unfocused rant (like we get in most of the Airbus/Boeing threads) I'll present a few specific items:

1. The cost.  At over $111,500, it's pretty dang expensive.  Sure, it's half what a 172 costs, but there's a lot less capability, and this is a lot of money compared to some of the other LSAs.  Maybe this is a non-issue, it's not my biggest problem with this plane.

2. I'm not wild about production being moved to China.  Not because of quality concerns (It'll be fine, there's way too much scrutiny in this industry for another 'lead paint' style defect), but because I'd like to see more domestic jobs, but that's a market forces issue so we'll see what happens.

3.  This is the real problem.  Useful load.  The 162 has a max gross of 1,320lbs of course, that's the LSA maximum and plenty of planes do fine with that restriction.  The problem is the empty weight of 830lbs dry.  490lbs of useful load.  A skinny 152 has a useful load of 520lbs for comparison.  Certainly the plane can be loaded more heavily, the placarded gross is an LSA restriction, but does this mean there'll be a generation of students significantly more likely to disregard loading because their instructors said "it's ok"?

Some of the good points:
1. Match hole drilling.  Lots of kitplane builders have been doing this for a while, like Vans RV.  Great way to cut production costs, maybe they'll start doing this w/ the 172 sometime.
2. Nice avionics.  The Garmin G300 EFIS plus nice radio and transponder beats the panel that shipped in the 152 pretty handily.  :)
3. Good sized cabin @ 44" wide.
4. Floor mounted control stick instead of panel mounted yoke.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_162

Talk amongst yourselves.
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Offline Viking

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« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2007, 10:13:34 AM »
It looks utterly dull and soulless ... like most Cessnas.

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2007, 01:44:25 PM »
I am on a personal boycott of China.

I don't shop at WalMart or Target and I won't be buying no friggin Chinese plane.

EAA build your own.
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Offline indy007

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« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2007, 01:50:40 PM »
The range seems really short compared to a lot of other LSA specs I've read. 470 miles @ 118kt cruise @ gross weight. The CTSW is claiming 1000 miles @ 112kt cruise with the same gross weight, and $15k cheaper.

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2007, 01:57:10 PM »
490lbs - my 230, = 260... - what 15 gallons? @ 6# (90 lbs) = 170 lbs - another 2 gallons @ 6 for oil, and that gets you 158 lbs for an instructor or a pax and a bag...

in a friggin Chinese plane.
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Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2007, 02:54:32 PM »
To add insult to injury, the specs suggest that the cabin is roomier and more comfortable than a 152 (which has a higher usable load).

TANJ.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2007, 02:58:36 PM by Chairboy »
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Offline LePaul

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« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2007, 05:20:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
I am on a personal boycott of China.

I don't shop at WalMart or Target and I won't be buying no friggin Chinese plane.

EAA build your own.


Been there, done that.  Very expensive process as well.  And kinda defeats buying a plane and flying it, oh, a week later  :)

The only thing that excites me about Cessna is that they bought up Columbia Aircraft.  That'll give them two, sharp low wing, fast planes.

Offline SD67

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« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2007, 07:10:38 PM »
tanstaafl
The larger cabin probably ate up some of that useful load.
I went all out with my KR and my gross will be up at about 1250# as opposed to the published figure of 980#
Mind you there are very few KR2S's that meet that weight. I'd say I've gained about 100# in just the wider cabin (38"-44") and an extra 14" stretch.
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Offline eagl

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« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2007, 09:15:42 PM »
The biggest problem I've read so far is that there are some aviation safety guys saying that the engine power limitations have made the overall design of LSA aircraft very marginal.  Basically if you make the airframe strong enough to be safe, they have very little useful load and not a whole lot of climb rate in high density altitude situations.  They've forced the industry to re-invent the cessna 150, which was a nice basic plane that couldn't lift 2 people higher than about 8000 ft and needed about 10k worth of runway when the density alt was over 6000 ft.

Not exactly the plane of the future there, but the basic design parameters used for the cessna 150 are the top-end limitations of the LSA class.  The best proposal to "fix" this would be to add another 25 or 50 hp and 100-200 lbs to the design parameters.  Leave everything else the same, just bump up the engine power and weight limits.  That would allow the designers to use a bigger wing which would help climb rate, useful load, stall speed, and the bigger wing would help keep the top speed down within limits even with the larger engine.

I hope they mod the parameters but it's a bit late now.
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Offline SD67

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« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2007, 09:38:54 PM »
the trouble is to mod the parameters and stay within speed and weight parameters for LSA.
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Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2007, 09:55:36 PM »
Piper Cub is pretty much the baseline LSA, and it seems to have enjoyed a certain amount of success over the years.
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Offline SD67

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« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2007, 11:26:22 PM »
Yeah, they've been around forever. Testament to good basic aircraft engineering.
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Offline eagl

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« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2007, 12:15:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SD67
the trouble is to mod the parameters and stay within speed and weight parameters for LSA.


Exactly.  Allowing an extra bit of weight and hp while keeping the speed restrictions would give the designers a lot of extra room to enhance climb rates, useful load, and airframe strength.  As it is, the LSA parameters are a big disappointment to a lot of people.
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Offline eagl

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« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2007, 12:17:05 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
Piper Cub is pretty much the baseline LSA, and it seems to have enjoyed a certain amount of success over the years.


But allowing a little extra hp and weight would do so much towards making the planes safer, more comfortable, and more useful.

As it is now, anyone considering an LSA for purchase probably ought to be convinced to rent until they can afford their PPL and then buy a real airplane.  Or go experimental and get something that really performs well.
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Offline LePaul

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« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2007, 12:35:41 AM »
If the exciting designs of the Experiemental World could meet the Certified world, then you'd have a heck of a market for fun flying.

I love the designs, I just dont want to build again!