P-51 Mustang

[Xasthur]

Originally posted by 200rabit
when ever i fly the p51's i allways loose speed when i dogfight and versing a 109 to get back in the fight hit the deck go faster than 475 mph then pull up roll right and the 109 will go crazy.



   

Any 109 pilot with a brain will know how to counter this and then simply eat you alive in that climb.

[SteveBailey]

Originally posted by trigger2
I'd love to have some of what your smoking :]
Flaps and throttle control mate, that's all you need to outturn a spixteen.
The P-51 is a brilliant plane for more experianced pilots who know how to use flaps and throttle control properly.

Psst, the only time you are going to outturn an equally skilled spit 16 pilot is when you have the 16 well over its cornering speed. And if you are turning, this advantage will be very short as the speeds will quickly drop.  

You seem to have mistaken me for someone who doesn't fly the 51 much.

[SteveBailey]

Originally posted by 200rabit
when ever i fly the p51's i allways loose speed when i dogfight and versing a 109 to get back in the fight hit the deck go faster than 475 mph then pull up roll right and the 109 will go crazy.



   

yikes, you're toast if you do that vs a guy who knows what he's doing.  Here's a helpful hint  though: The pony turns and rolls(a little) better to the left.

[Simaril]

Originally posted by dtango
Simaril:  That's a little bit more tricky of a question.  

As a generalization I think it's about average (maybe even just a little above avg) in energy retention.  The Mustang's mystical energy retention is mainly situational.  Let me explain:

It retains energy well if you fly it using low-g or very short duration maneuvers.  But any aircraft would retain energy flying in this manner.  What helps the Mustang in these situations is that it has a lower parasite drag coefficient compared to other planes.  That's part of the reason for it's higher top speed for a modest engine horsepower.  The same factor of course contributes to retaining energy because it bleeds energy slower from parasite drag in low-g, high speed maneuvers.  Enter a fight when you have energy in either altitude or speed, use maneuvers sparingly, be disciplined about trading that speed for alt.  Combine that with a lower parasite drag and the Mustang hangs on to it's energy longer.

.....snip...

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

Excellent answer. Thanks.

And that low-G maneuvering is typically how I fly the pony successfully. I'm not nearly patient enough to be a true alt monkey picker (not that there's anything wrong with that) But, within those limits it's a really sweet ride. Limit turns to under 60 or so degrees; learn how to cut flight paths that let you use less G, but make enemies use higher G to pursue/break; use the vertical (with low G) to maintain energy...and many good things come, even to guys like me who cant shoot their way out of a paper bag with a sawed off shotgun!

[trigger2]

Originally posted by SteveBailey
Psst, the only time you are going to outturn an equally skilled spit 16 pilot is when you have the 16 well over its cornering speed. And if you are turning, this advantage will be very short as the speeds will quickly drop.  

You seem to have mistaken me for someone who doesn't fly the 51 much.

Never said an equally skilled spit stick.
As someone said previously, the majority of people in the spitfire are complete noobs who fly balls to the wall. The pony can turn if it has to.

[dtango]

Originally posted by trigger2
Never said an equally skilled spit stick.
As someone said previously, the majority of people in the spitfire are complete noobs who fly balls to the wall. The pony can turn if it has to.

Fine and dandy .  It's just that it's terrible advice to be giving someone trying to learn the Pony because it gives the impression that any noob can turn fight in the Mustang.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  If you're going to turnfight in a P-51, you better darn well have a lot of other things figured out because you're going to have to employ alot of other tactics to win a maneuver fight against a better turning plane.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[SteveBailey]

Originally posted by trigger2
Never said an equally skilled spit stick.
As someone said previously, the majority of people in the spitfire are complete noobs who fly balls to the wall. The pony can turn if it has to.

 

Flaps and throttle control mate, that's all you need to outturn a spixteen.

you are implying here that one can outturn a 16... any 16.  You  are wrong... just plain wrong.

[trigger2]

Originally posted by SteveBailey
you are implying here that one can outturn a 16... any 16.  You  are wrong... just plain wrong.

Yes, you CAN outturn a 16 IF the right critiria is met. Speed, Flaps, Altitude and how good is the guy in the other plane? If theyre flyin balls to the wall at a high altitude and a complete noob  (90% of spit sticks) then you got the upper hand and your on the inside easy if you know how to cut throttle to about 30% with full flaps. If you've got 2 of these 3 then you gotta work a little harder, and if you've only got 1, well, depends on which one it is. It's knowledge, pretty basic too it seems.

[Larry]

Originally posted by trigger2
Yes, you CAN outturn a 16 IF the right critiria is met.

Trigger I can outturn a noob in a A6M2 with my lancaster IF the right critiria is met. A spit16 turn radius with flaps up is 20m tighter then the P51Ds with full flaps. I dont know what kind of people you have been flying agenst but anyone who has been flying before November of this year can out turn a pony in a spit16.

[SteveBailey]

Flaps and throttle control mate, that's all you need to outturn a spixteen.

Yes, you CAN outturn a 16 IF the right critiria is met. Speed, Flaps, Altitude and how good is the guy in the other plane

 

So flaps and throttle  control isn't all you need eh?  

inside easy if you know how to cut throttle to about 30% with full flaps. If you've got 2 of these 3 then you gotta work a little harder, and if you've only got 1, well, depends on which one it is. It's knowledge, pretty basic too it seems

Once again you are spreading incorrect information.  If you are slow enough to deploy full flaps and actually do so in a turn, you are DECREASING a pony's turning ability. You are just plain wrong, again.

Trigger, I know I sound harsh but you are absolutely incorrect. What is your in game name?  Have I ever run into you?

[Larry]

Originally posted by SteveBailey
What is your in game name?

I would love to know the answer to this question.

[AquaShrimp]

I have lots of success in the P-51 when I use vertical maneuvering as much as possible.  Say for example, I meet a Spit 9 at co-alt at about 5000 feet.  We pass each other then engage.  Instead of doing an E-bleeding flat turn, I'll do an immelman, but adjust it so that my gunsight crosses his path when I roll level.  Not only have I not lost any E during that maneuvering (simply traded kinetic energy for potential energy), but I'm now in a position where I can at least get a snapshot on the dude.  Hes probably on the verge of a blackout too.

Heres a few other tips for flying the Mustang:

It turns best to the left

Retract your flaps as soon as your stop turning

If someone is definately going to get a shot at you, turn towards and below them.  Say for example an N1K2 is 800 yards from you at your 10:00 position.  You would make a diving left-hand turn.  

10,000 feet is the optimal cruising altitude for the P-51.  It'll do over 400mph in just military power.  From about 11,000 up to 18,000 you can't get full engine power.  Above that, 25,000 is the best cruising alt.

A zero-G dive is the best way to disengage from a rolling scissors maneuver where the enemy is getting behind you.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by AquaShrimp
I have lots of success in the P-51 when I use vertical maneuvering as much as possible.  Say for example, I meet a Spit 9 at co-alt at about 5000 feet.  We pass each other then engage.  Instead of doing an E-bleeding flat turn, I'll do an immelman, but adjust it so that my gunsight crosses his path when I roll level.  Not only have I not lost any E during that maneuvering (simply traded kinetic energy for potential energy), but I'm now in a position where I can at least get a snapshot on the dude.  Hes probably on the verge of a blackout too.

Here's the problem with the above: Should you run across someone with dueling experience flying a SpitIX under the circumstances you describe, you'll be dead before you reverse 180 degrees. It doesn't matter if you reverse into an immelmann as the Spit will execute a climbing turn, bleed E faster and be waiting for you. Ditto for the F4U, F6F, and quite a few others. The P-51's low drag/high E retention can be a liability under the circumstances you specify.

Against a half-way competent stick, your Mustang will be chewed to pieces right off the merge. What you described is not how I fight my P-51 against Spits. I always work to establish an E advantage, and maintain that advantage at all times. The P-51 has excellent high speed handling, but low speed maneuverability is "the suck". Minimize flap use, don't G-load the airframe without good cause. Be smooth on control inputs and never chop power in an attempt to gain an angle. Acceleration is only average at best, so burning E is a bad thing.

P-51s have four primary strengths:
1. Speed
2. High-speed handling
3. Superior E retention
4. Superior outward visibility

Should a P-51 pilot not fight to those advantages, he usually dies.

My regards,

Widewing

[dtango]

Originally posted by trigger2
Yes, you CAN outturn a 16 IF the right critiria is met. Speed, Flaps, Altitude and how good is the guy in the other plane? If theyre flyin balls to the wall at a high altitude and a complete noob  (90% of spit sticks) then you got the upper hand and your on the inside easy if you know how to cut throttle to about 30% with full flaps. If you've got 2 of these 3 then you gotta work a little harder, and if you've only got 1, well, depends on which one it is. It's knowledge, pretty basic too it seems.

What is the intention of your posts?  If you're intending to brag about how smart or how good your are in the Mustang by minimizing the challenge of defeating a better turning plane then you've done your job.

If however you're intending to provide some good advice on Mustang tactics then you're posts are lacking.  Air combat is relative.  What you're stating are over-generalizations which makes your statements pretty much useless.  If you want to be helpful then you need to provide more relative information to make use of what you're saying.  It's completely misleading otherwise.

(1) For example chopping throttle degrades your instantaneous and sustained turn performance unless you happen to be above corner speed and you're trying to get your airspeed lower to get there.  Being above corner only occurs when:

• you already accelerated there at level or
• when you happen to be accelerating in a some form of nose down attitude and building airspeed.

For this to be even useful the Spitfire has to be at a point in it's turn performance envelope worse than or not using it's turn advantage vs. the Mustang.  It's completely misleading to say that you'll outturn a Spit XVI anytime by chopping throttle.

(2) Chopping throttle below corner velocity is useful in situations where reducing your relative forward velocity by reducing thrust gives you a positional advantage.  Between a Mustang and Spit XVI this happens only cases when

• the Spit XVI is at the RIGHT separation distance like the below image (Spit would be Plane A):

• or when the Spit has a huge margin of smash compared to the Mustang,
• or both.

If the separation distances are closer or if the Spit doesn't have a large airspeed margin above yours then chopping throttle is pretty useless.  Also in the situation when the Mustang and Spit are below corner velocity, it's misleading to say you're out-turning the Spit in this case because you're not using better turn radius or turn rate to force an overshoot.  You're using lower airspeed to force an overshoot, not outturning the Spit at all.

A quick word on flaps.  Dumping flaps will decrease your corner speed, increase your instantaneous turn rate and reduce your turn radius in a Mustang.  It also helps if you're in situation #2 above by increasing drag to reduce your velocity.  But just like chopping throttle, there are parameters around each situation when dumping flaps makes or doesn't make sense.

It's misleading to say that all you need to do is chop throttle and use flaps to outturn a Spit.  There are situations that this will help a Mustang in.  However it's a disservice to call it basic that any new dweeb should know without some serious learning/training from experience or otherwise.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[AquaShrimp]

Originally posted by Widewing
Here's the problem with the above: Should you run across someone with dueling experience flying a SpitIX under the circumstances you describe, you'll be dead before you reverse 180 degrees. It doesn't matter if you reverse into an immelmann as the Spit will execute a climbing turn, bleed E faster and be waiting for you. Ditto for the F4U, F6F, and quite a few others. The P-51's low drag/high E retention can be a liability under the circumstances you specify.

Ok, well in that case I would keep going vertical.  The P-51s low speed maneuverability is not as bad as you say.  

But very rarely do I run across a spit pilot that does more than a flat turn.  I have a positive kill-to-death ratio that can attest to that.  My arena name is Shrimp07.