Author Topic: Flugwerke 109D9 engine runs (Read 2087 times)

Xasthur · « **Reply #30 on:** December 13, 2007, 08:38:51 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Viking
I can't agree with that. As long as you keep the fight at or below 20k feet the Dora is superior to the Pony in all regimes of flight. The Dora even out-turns the Pony using flaps (just barely).

Well in my experience I have found it very difficult to gain any particular advantage in a fight with an experienced Pony pilot.

I've flown against squadies that I'm quite evenly matched with and whilst I can gain the advantage relatively easily in a 109 the Dora just presents no real chances. The fights always end in a stalemate.

While I do not fly the Dora all that much these days I used to quite a bit and I seem to think that it should turn a little bit better than it does.

It's so very sensitive on the stall it seems slightly handicapped.

Xasthur · « **Reply #31 on:** December 13, 2007, 08:47:25 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Viking
Actually the plane I feel most comfortable in against a Pony is the 109K. It's a bonafide Pony-killer. The Pony can escape by diving, but that's all.

The Pony has no response to a well flown K4 or even a G-14 if the fight is maintained.

It can't often out-run the K4, can't out-turn it, can't out-climb it....

If it dives you can catch up you just need to be careful with the elevators.

pipz · « **Reply #32 on:** December 13, 2007, 08:54:56 PM »

Thanks for posting that story Ghi

Pipz

JB73 · « **Reply #33 on:** December 13, 2007, 10:52:06 PM »

excellent story ghi thanks!

crockett · « **Reply #34 on:** December 14, 2007, 01:28:25 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Xasthur
The Pony has no response to a well flown K4 or even a G-14 if the fight is maintained.

It can't often out-run the K4, can't out-turn it, can't out-climb it....

If it dives you can catch up you just need to be careful with the elevators.

I made a video from the Der Grosse Schlag scenario of me in a K-4 vs two P51D's. Was the first time I ever flew the thing and ended up with 4 kills and no deaths.

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/117694.html

However that's the last time I've been able to kill anything in a K-4 except the ground. I guess it was beginner's luck.

btw cool story GHI.

Charge · « **Reply #35 on:** December 14, 2007, 03:46:16 AM »

That Dora pilot was Rudi Wurff of JG 301.

-C+

PanosGR · « **Reply #36 on:** December 14, 2007, 05:55:52 AM »

Great story GHi

Thanks:aok

TUXC · « **Reply #37 on:** December 14, 2007, 09:22:14 AM »

Quote from Shaw's book on fighter tactics, taken from a post on this BB many years ago since I don't have the book in front of me right now:

"A plane was approaching and because of its long nose I thought it was a Mustang. Turning into it I received a shock, it was neither a Mustang nor an ME-109, but a new Focke-Wulf, its long nose was the latest improvement of the famed FW. These planes with the longer noses were rumored to have more horsepower than their predecessors, and were capable of giving Mustang a rough time. We met practically head-on and both of us banked our planes in preparation for a dogfight.
Around and around we went. Sometimes the FW got in close, and other times, when I'd drop my flap to tighten my turn, I was in a position to fire, but the German, sensing my superior position, kept swinging down in his turn, and gaining airspeed and quickly pulling up, and with the advantage in height he would then pour down on my tail. Time was in his favor, he could fight that way for an hour and still have enough fuel to land anywhere below him. I still had 400 miles of enemy territory to fly over before I could land. Something had to be done. Throwing caution to the wind I lifted a flap, dove and pulled up in a steep turn, at the same time dropping a little flap. The G was terrific, but it worked, and I had the Jerry nailed for sure. Pressing the tit I waited, but nothing happened, not a damned thing. My guns weren't firing.
By taking this last gamble I had lost altitude but had been able to bring my guns to bear while flying below the FW. With his advantage of height he came down, pulled up sharp, and was smack-dab on my tail again. The 20 mm. cannons belched and I could see what looked like golf balls streaming by me. A little less deflection and those seemingly harmless golf balls would have exploded instantly upon contact with my plane. "Never turn your back on an enemy" was a byword with us, but I had no choice. Turning the plane over on its back I yanked the stick to my but. My throttle was wide open and I left it there as I dove. The needle stopped at 600 miles per -- that was as far as it could go on the dial. Pulling out I expected at any minute to have the wings rip off, the plane was bucking so much. The last part of the pull-up brought me up into clouds. I was thankful to have evaded the long-nosed FW, for that pilot was undoubtedly the best that I had ever met."

-John Godfrey, Mustang ace

Viking · « **Reply #38 on:** December 14, 2007, 10:08:15 AM »

Nice stories Ghi and Tuxc. Thanks for sharing.

"Time was in his favor, he could fight that way for an hour and still have enough fuel to land anywhere below him."

Lol, yeah I wish that was true in this game.

Krusty · « **Reply #39 on:** December 14, 2007, 10:31:19 AM »

There are many sources that claim the 190D was the best turning, best handling of all the previous versions (including the early A models), but in-game it always seems under-modeled compared to what I've read in many places.

In FSO with historic late ware LW vs US setups, the 190D is the worst fighter in the setup, dogmeat to all allied planes except the grossly overweight P-47, and it's only just barely able to deal with the P-47 on even terms. This has been shown in several cases in squadron-sized combat. The dora (in this game) is just a POS.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy flying it at times, and have landed many a kill in it in the MA and all that, but it's definitely not stacking up to the historic counter-part.

BaldEagl · « **Reply #40 on:** December 14, 2007, 11:54:38 AM »

Ghi and TUXC, thanks for the stories.

Mister Fork · « **Reply #41 on:** December 14, 2007, 01:23:58 PM »

Any aircraft in competent hands is a monster. It's always the man, not the machine that makes the battle.

Krusty · « **Reply #42 on:** December 14, 2007, 02:48:57 PM »

That's a vary narrow mindset and every time folks use it I just shake my head.

Put one person in a Ju87 and another in a spixteen, and it's the machine. Sure the "person" (by this I mean "skill") plays a role, but there's a very obvious impact by choosing a better plane vs an inferior plane. It is just as much the plane as it is the pilot, and definitely NOT all reliant on the pilot.

The plane itself can multiply the effectiveness of the pilot's skill, regardless of the quantity of said skill. If you've got a skill level a mere fraction of normal, but you fly a plane with a high "multiplier" it allows you to kill "normal skill" players. It's all relative but I'm trying to put it in easy-to-understand words. Any 2-week newbie can jump into a spixteen and get kills on the average vets that have been playing a year or more. Doesn't mean they were better, just that the plane made up for their shortcomings and allowed them to do what other planes wouldn't have allowed them to do.

Given the stories posted above, it seems like the Tempest pilot was totally inept and the Dora pilot was an ace, and these were clearly superior pilots.

However, there are still many reports on the handling and performance of the 190D and the one modeled in game falls short of these more often than not, it seems.

Widewing · « **Reply #43 on:** December 14, 2007, 06:54:33 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Viking
According to Gonzo's fighter comparison tables it does. 633 feet radius for the Pony with flaps, and 627 feet for the Dora.

I can get the P-51D turn radius down to 594 feet, and I've tested it repeatedly.

That aside, the problem for the Dora is that it cannot begin to deploy flaps until it is down to around 175 mph, and full flaps much slower than that. Meanwhile, the P-51s can get maneuver flaps out at 400 mph. The dilemma for a low and slow Dora is surviving long enough to utilize flaps.

In practice, flap use in any 190 is best limited to maneuvering in the vertical (going up), as they will blow up quickly once the aircraft begins to accelerate. I enjoy the 190s, but they require more discipline than most fighters.

My regards,

Widewing

Krusty · « **Reply #44 on:** December 14, 2007, 07:09:08 PM »

I sent Gonzo a PM a year ago asking him if the FW190 data was "new" (after the big airflow recoding, which totally changed how 190s fly) or what. He got back to me this month (he even laughed at the fact it'd been a year!) and said the data is old and hasn't been updated in a long time.