The Final Battle Final Score's

[Nefarious]

As the ground fighting on Okinawa continued, the air battle above reached its end as the Allies delivered its final blow against a beleaguered Japanese Air Force. The story once again this frame is the slaughter of scores of Japanese Peggy Bombers. 51 Peggy Bombers were shot down in Frame 3.

Although the Axis did manage to destroy 5 Hangars and the Allied Cruiser of TF38 it wasn't enough to surpass the total points earned from shooting down that many bombers.

The Scores of Frame are as follows.

Allied: 1375
Axis: 770

Total Scores.

Allied: 4180
Axis: 2370

Besides the fact of losing Drones on Rearm, It seems the Ki67s were the deciding factor in all three frames. The CMs discussed the scoring after frame 1 and adjusted the scores of the Task Forces. The end result didn't see much difference in the scores of each frame I would have hoped to see.

It seemed to me that the Ki67 would be a pretty evenly matched bomber in this arena. I honestly did not think the losses would be so staggering. The cost in points of 160 Ki67s lost over three frames equaled 1600 Points. Obviously, 100% survival is not going to happen, but 50% (generous still?) would of seen a noticeable difference in the score.

Hopefully, I hope it was a fun and successful event for all who participated, as always, comments are welcome. As a reminder, please join us the Friday after  Christmas for Christmas over Germany.

Merry Christmas Everyone!

[Saxman]

So in other words, Japanese twin-engine bombers were as much lunchmeat for American fighters in the campaign as they were during the actual war?

and well done Allies! VMF-251 was glad to be a part of this, and look forward to the next campaign.

[Nefarious]

Glad you and your squad could join us! Welcome aboard.

[damnname]

Japanese did lose the war last time I checked!

[bongaroo]

well with that attitude why would anyone ever want to fly japanese in these events?  i sure as heck never want to see ki-67 duty again or at least not for a long time(we did it twice!).

I don't think I remember one fight where we were not fairly badly outnumbered

[Nefarious]

Originally posted by bongaroo
well with that attitude why would anyone ever want to fly japanese in these events?

Thats exactly why we try to make the events as fair as possible, Evening the playing field for game play is our number one goal. I did not design the event to relive the actual battle of Okinawa, We design the event to be set in a historical atmosphere, but ultimately its for the players to decide the outcome.

I don't think I remember one fight where we were not fairly badly outnumbered

Well, there certainly was a large numbers disparity in Frame 2 and 3. And that is beyond my control, but I will tell you that in the end not all fights will see you on the short end of the stick.  You can be sure that there will be some changes to this setup should it be ran again. Ki67 scoring, Axis Numbers.

[Krusty]

If you put Ki67s in ANY setup, you should expect nearly 100% losses. It's just the way it goes. These things are nearly defensless (save for a narrow window for the 20mm) and are easily shot down by even the earliest of US planes. Okay, the earliest of US planes that can catch them.

Every time I see them in some setup, they're dog meat unless there's some super miracle they never see the enemy.


EDIT: Okay, that came off as a bit grumpy, but I've been there before in the Ki67s. I don't think the scoring should emphasize the Ki67s at all. I think it should lessen their impact on the overall score, because in all fairness they're just free points to the opposing team. It's like flying a formation of 30 C-47s into enemy airspace and then docking the team that flew them for every plane lost.

[Saxman]

The troublesome thing is she's still probably the most defensively capable multi-engine bomber the Japanese had. If HTC ever adds the Betty I think we'd be looking at about a 200% loss rate.  Perhaps next time the setup is run allow a certain number of extra "lives" for the Peggy? Say, half the group gets to re-up or something? Give the Allies more targets.

Although, I suppose it's a good thing for the Axis the setup didn't have Vals and Kates, instead.

I disagree with de-emphasizing scoring on them completely, though, as they ARE a primary threat and scoring should probably reflect as such.

[trax1]

Allied on the victory, even though the scoring was unbalanced it was still a really fun FSO, and thats really the only part that matters.

[Krusty]

Originally posted by Saxman
The troublesome thing is she's still probably the most defensively capable multi-engine bomber the Japanese had. If HTC ever adds the Betty I think we'd be looking at about a 200% loss rate.  Perhaps next time the setup is run allow a certain number of extra "lives" for the Peggy? Say, half the group gets to re-up or something? Give the Allies more targets.

Although, I suppose it's a good thing for the Axis the setup didn't have Vals and Kates, instead.

I disagree with de-emphasizing scoring on them completely, though, as they ARE a primary threat and scoring should probably reflect as such.

The the payload a Ki67 has, and the chances of it surviving to land any of it on target, you could up a flight of N1K2s, Ki61s, or Ki84s with 250lbs bombs on the wings and have a MUCH higher survivability rate, a MUCH higher success rate (more likely to survive in to the target, is my guess) and a much LOWER score penalty because they are not 3x twin engine bombers ratcheting the allied score up, if they lose.

I think there are ways around emphasizing killing the bombers, especially when so ineffective. Or, at least if we KNOW they're totally ineffective, we shouldn't penalize the Japanese forces for being forced to rely on them to get the job done. The fact they can't hit their target should be enough, rather than heaping high score loss (often twin engine planes "cost" more) times each drone in the air.

Oh well, just food for thought.

[Saxman]

Just want to point out, though, that the inability of the bombers to reach their targets isn't ALWAYS the fault of the bombers. If bombers are getting massacred, then there's a probability of a failure of both tactics, and that the escorts may not be doing their jobs and share at least part of the blame. Even the big Allied four-engined heavies are lunchmeat if unescorted with poor tactics against sufficient opposition.

Case in point: My squadron was flying CAP in Frame 2 in FM-2s. Although we weren't a major factor ourselves (VF-31 catching the rearming bombers was the difference maker) IMO the bomber strikes weren't well coordinated. The formations were spread out so there was no mutually supporting defensive fire. While hitting from two directions simultaneously--and both high and low--forced us to divide our efforts, because the formations weren't supporting each other we were generally able to take on each set of pilot and drones piecemeal. Additionally, I only recall seeing 2-3 escort fighters, defending a relatively scattered attack force.

[Spazzter]

Originally posted by Krusty
If you put Ki67s in ANY setup, you should expect nearly 100% losses. It's just the way it goes. These things are nearly defensless (save for a narrow window for the 20mm) and are easily shot down by even the earliest of US planes. Okay, the earliest of US planes that can catch them.

Every time I see them in some setup, they're dog meat unless there's some super miracle they never see the enemy.


EDIT: Okay, that came off as a bit grumpy, but I've been there before in the Ki67s. I don't think the scoring should emphasize the Ki67s at all. I think it should lessen their impact on the overall score, because in all fairness they're just free points to the opposing team. It's like flying a formation of 30 C-47s into enemy airspace and then docking the team that flew them for every plane lost.

I agree that the scoring on the bombers was a bit off.  I think that they were 10 points each as they have twin engines.  I think that half that would be fair as they are cannon fodder.

Also, it is hard to make an event competitive when you are outnumbered 30 plus pilots in each frame.  I know that is out of the control of the event organizers, but does make it tough to give a good fight.  I had fun none the less and am looking forward to the next event.


<>
Spazz

[Krusty]

Good points, Sax, spaz.

Still, it seems the lesser-capable bombers are worth more than they ought (this just an opinion, only based on my thoughts).

If this were a B-26, B24, B17, capable of defending itself, more likely to kill the attacker than to be killed, I can mentally justify a higher points total for killing it. I think for the lesser bombers, perhaps "normal" scoring should be used. That is, it's worth no more than the most valuable fighter on the same team.

If you've got Ki61s worth 5 points, Ki84s worth 8 points, and bombers worth 20, then the bombers would be dropped down to 8 points.

I haven't tested it, I don't know all the stuff the CMs know, so I honestly can't say I'm right, but that's what I'd like to suggest.

[Citabria]

S! to the axis.

allies had a numbers advantage and that made things even more difficult for an already difficult position of being in a ki84, ki61 or a6m5 vs fast late war USN planes.

I have no sympathy for the n1k2 pilots though. they all deserved to die dweeby deaths.

[Krusty]