Author Topic: Treadmill redux  (Read 1130 times)

Offline Chairboy

  • Probation
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8221
      • hallert.net
Treadmill redux
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2007, 09:02:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
so what's the big deal again?
Ask the folks who think a plane won't take off from a treadmill because of some sort of magical super gravity effect made by the mere presence of the moving surface.  :D
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline Gunslinger

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10084
Treadmill redux
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2007, 09:03:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKIron
There's two ways to interpret the wheel/belt thing.

1. Does the surface of the belt match the airspeed of the plane but in the opposite direction

or

2. Does the belt surface match the speed of the surface of the spinning tire but in the opposite direction

If #1, the plane takes off easily. If #2, and the belt isn't constrained by realistic mechanical properties but the tires are then the tire will quickly blow due to speed of the belt.


There's no air flow over the wings though......no air flow = no lift.

A treadmill is a usually a stationary object......thus no flowing of air.

EDIT:

OK I'll concede that if you put a powerfull enough engine on a dump truck you can get it off the ground from a treadmill.....thus an airplane can take off from a treadmill.

HOWEVER, the treadmill is irrellevent, STOL planes can take off from the ground reguardless of the how fast the surface underneith them move.  With that said it kinda negates the whole discussion.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2007, 09:09:48 PM by Gunslinger »

Offline Chairboy

  • Probation
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8221
      • hallert.net
Treadmill redux
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2007, 09:08:23 PM »
I withdraw my bingo, you appear to be caught in the same illogic loop.

The plane isn't propelled by the wheels, it's pushed forward by the prop.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline eskimo2

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7207
      • hallbuzz.com
Treadmill redux
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2007, 09:09:40 PM »
Chairboy;
Read and answer:

Identical triplets Al, Bob and Chuck buy three identical bush planes.  Since they live in Alaska, all three brothers buy and install large balloon “tundra tires” and wheels.  The wheels, planes and brothers are identical.  All three planes will take off from a normal runway in exactly 100 feet and at exactly 50 mph.  The brothers fly their planes to an air show in Wisconsin.  At the air show Bob finds and buys a set of fantastic wheels.  These wheels are exactly like the wheels he has on his plane in every way except they have half the mass.  Their mass is distributed in the same proportion as the wheels that he plans on replacing.  Al thinks Bob is silly and is content with his old wheels.  Bob thinks that Al will eventually want a set, so he buys a second set to give to Al on their birthday.

Bob finds a buyer for his old heavy wheels and installs a set of his new lightweight ones.  He loads the second set into his plane so that it is balanced just as it was before.  Bob’s plane now weighs exactly the same as Al’s and Chuck’s, but its wheels have half the mass.

Meanwhile, Chuck runs into a magician who sells him a set of magic wheels.  These wheels are exactly like the wheels he has on his plane in every way except they have no mass.  Chuck installs his magic wheels.  He loads his old set into his plane so that it is balanced just as it was before.  Chuck’s plane now weighs exactly the same as Al’s and Bob’s, but its wheels have no mass.

When the brothers leave the air show they request a formation take off.  They line up wing tip to wing tip and apply power at exactly the same time.  All three planes weigh exactly the same and must hit 50 mph to lift off.  When Chuck’s plane lifts off his wheels stop spinning instantly since they have no mass.  Since they have no mass, they also have no rotational inertia.  When Al’s plane lifts off his heavy wheels are spinning at 50 mph and have considerable rotational inertia.  When Bob’s plane lifts off his half-weight wheels are spinning at 50 mph and have exactly half the rotational inertia as Al’s wheels.  

Where did the rotational inertia and energy in Bob’s and Al’s wheels come from?
How did the rotational inertia and energy now stored in Bob’s and Al’s wheels affect the take off distance of their planes?
We know that Al’s plane will still take off in exactly 100 feet; where will Bob’s and Chuck’s planes take off?

Offline AKIron

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13293
Treadmill redux
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2007, 09:11:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
There's no air flow over the wings though......no air flow = no lift.

A treadmill is a usually a stationary object......thus no flowing of air.


The plane must move forward through the air to generate lift on the wings. If the wheels are spinning a million miles an hour as the belt attempts to counter the speed of the spinning wheels there will be a lot of friction effectively applying the brakes. As Eskimo mentioned, there are other forces in effect besides friction too.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline Gunslinger

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10084
Treadmill redux
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2007, 09:14:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by eskimo2
Chairboy;
Read and answer:

Identical triplets Al, Bob and Chuck buy three identical bush planes.  Since they live in Alaska, all three brothers buy and install large balloon “tundra tires” and wheels.  The wheels, planes and brothers are identical.  All three planes will take off from a normal runway in exactly 100 feet and at exactly 50 mph.  The brothers fly their planes to an air show in Wisconsin.  At the air show Bob finds and buys a set of fantastic wheels.  These wheels are exactly like the wheels he has on his plane in every way except they have half the mass.  Their mass is distributed in the same proportion as the wheels that he plans on replacing.  Al thinks Bob is silly and is content with his old wheels.  Bob thinks that Al will eventually want a set, so he buys a second set to give to Al on their birthday.

Bob finds a buyer for his old heavy wheels and installs a set of his new lightweight ones.  He loads the second set into his plane so that it is balanced just as it was before.  Bob’s plane now weighs exactly the same as Al’s and Chuck’s, but its wheels have half the mass.

Meanwhile, Chuck runs into a magician who sells him a set of magic wheels.  These wheels are exactly like the wheels he has on his plane in every way except they have no mass.  Chuck installs his magic wheels.  He loads his old set into his plane so that it is balanced just as it was before.  Chuck’s plane now weighs exactly the same as Al’s and Bob’s, but its wheels have no mass.

When the brothers leave the air show they request a formation take off.  They line up wing tip to wing tip and apply power at exactly the same time.  All three planes weigh exactly the same and must hit 50 mph to lift off.  When Chuck’s plane lifts off his wheels stop spinning instantly since they have no mass.  Since they have no mass, they also have no rotational inertia.  When Al’s plane lifts off his heavy wheels are spinning at 50 mph and have considerable rotational inertia.  When Bob’s plane lifts off his half-weight wheels are spinning at 50 mph and have exactly half the rotational inertia as Al’s wheels.  

Where did the rotational inertia and energy in Bob’s and Al’s wheels come from?
How did the rotational inertia and energy now stored in Bob’s and Al’s wheels affect the take off distance of their planes?
We know that Al’s plane will still take off in exactly 100 feet; where will Bob’s and Chuck’s planes take off?


at 100ft.  The air flow over the wings makes the plane take off, not the wheels.  From a physics stand point (IM un eduacted HO) the only difference might be some type of gyroscopic effect produced by the spinning wheels.  I don't know what effect this has in flight.

With a powerfull enough engine anything can get off the ground with or without wings.

Offline john9001

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9453
Treadmill redux
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2007, 09:14:39 PM »
wait wait, my airplane has a 50 mph head wind.

Offline Gunslinger

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10084
Treadmill redux
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2007, 09:16:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKIron
The plane must move forward through the air to generate lift on the wings. If the wheels are spinning a million miles an hour as the belt attempts to counter the speed of the spinning wheels there will be a lot of friction effectively applying the brakes. As Eskimo mentioned, there are other forces in effect besides friction too.


If I run on a treadmill I sweat more.......because there isn't any airflow on my body.  Again no air flow no lift.

as long as the prop is clear of the ground you might even be able to get off on the belly.  Wheels and friction are irrelevent to lift.

Offline AKIron

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13293
Treadmill redux
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2007, 09:19:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
wait wait, my airplane has a 50 mph head wind.


But you forgot to remove your control lock.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline AKIron

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13293
Treadmill redux
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2007, 09:20:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
If I run on a treadmill I sweat more.......because there isn't any airflow on my body.  Again no air flow no lift.

as long as the prop is clear of the ground you might even be able to get off on the belly.  Wheels and friction are irrelevent to lift.


Try to generate enough lift to take off with flat tires or the brakes fully applied.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline Gunslinger

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10084
Treadmill redux
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2007, 09:22:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKIron
Try to generate enough lift to take off with flat tires or the brakes fully applied.


You could put the brakes on full and chain the thing to the ground and you'll get the same effect of magical frictionless tires on a treadmill

Offline Ripsnort

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 27260
Treadmill redux
« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2007, 09:22:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
so what's the big deal again?

That's the first thing I thought..."ya need air flow for lift..."  :rolleyes:

Offline Donzo

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2355
      • http://www.bops.us
Treadmill redux
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2007, 09:32:16 PM »
And we're off!

The last thread on the subject when 27 pages and 673 posts.

What do you say O'Club?  Can we overcome frictions, angular momentums, illegal immigration, and global warming to pass the 673 posts mark with this thread?

The long holiday weekend is near so I think there will be a lot of people with a lot of time on their hands.

I predict we make it to the 850 posts range.

Offline Gunslinger

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10084
Treadmill redux
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2007, 09:33:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Donzo
And we're off!

The last thread on the subject when 27 pages and 673 posts.

What do you say O'Club?  Can we overcome frictions, angular momentums, illegal immigration, and global warming to pass the 673 posts mark with this thread?

The long holiday weekend is near so I think there will be a lot of people with a lot of time on their hands.

I predict we make it to the 1100 posts range.



BUT THERE'S NO AIR FLOW OVER THE WINGS!!!!!!!

:furious

Offline AKIron

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13293
Treadmill redux
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2007, 09:37:30 PM »
Lift? Where we're going we don't need lift.

Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.