Author Topic: Fabric Skin Observation (Read 1188 times)

Saxman · « **on:** December 24, 2007, 07:14:31 PM »

While working on improving some shortcomings in the rivets and panel lines on my F4U template I found this site. Needless to say I noticed a detail that is actually wrong on most F4U skins.

http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images/view?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3Df4u%2Bwing%26toggle%3D1%26cop%3Dmss%26ei%3DUTF-8%26ni%3D21%26fr%3Dyfp-t-501%26b%3D232&w=141&h=94&imgurl=www.warbird-photos.com%2Fnavalairwarfare10-2-04%2Fthumbnails%2FtnIMG_4188.JPG&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.warbird-photos.com%2Fnavalairwarfare10-2-04&size=4.8kB&name=tnIMG_4188.JPG&p=f4u+wing&type=jpeg&no=232&tt=509&oid=af6d21458f924c62&ei=UTF-8

Check out the screencaps and in particular pay close attention to the wings.

The "dipping" effect of the fabric covering on the outer panels actually appears to NOT exist at all, but rather the effect is otherwise indistinguishable from the metal panels: The edges are sunk, but the area in the middle is higher--the INVERSE of how this area is usually skinned.

Further research indicated to me why: The fabric was pulled extremely tight on the frame to provide as smooth a surface as possible, probably because it could be potentially disruptive to airflow over the wing. The fabric is under significant stress fro the outside edges and wouldn't be ABLE to sag.

Where the ribbing IS visible is on the rudder. HOWEVER unlike the way this is usually skinned, note that the material itself is STILL pulled tight and flat with no sagging. The ribs project, but SHARPLY, not with the smooth curvature as usually skinned. This same pattern is also visible on the elevators.

As there are other aircraft in the game that also utilized fabric surfaces, I'd be willing to bet that any representation of sagging is incorrect there.

Dux · « **Reply #1 on:** December 27, 2007, 05:13:01 PM »

What you're calling "sagging" isn't really... it's the effect of having fabric stretched between two convex forms. If the stretching occurred only at right angles to the ribs, then there would be no dipping at all; but since the fabric is being stretched not only from the sides but from the front and back stringers as well, then the fabric is going to try to make the shortest distance between the two. Equilibrium wins out eventually and the effect looks like sagging, but it's actually very tightly stretched.

But, yes... the effect is often overdone on skins.

Saxman · « **Reply #2 on:** December 27, 2007, 05:57:59 PM »

Dux,

Take a MUCH closer look at the fabric areas of the F4U's wings in the images on that site. There's only two places where the spars look anything REMOTELY similar to your image, on the rudder, and the elevators.

Note that in this image, the area immediately over the spars is actually RECESSED.

It's harder to see on the intermediate blue of the under-side of the wing, but if you look closely at the roundel you can see the same effect: The skin BETWEEN, not OVER, the ribs is elevated.

Now, note these:

While the underlying spars DO project from the skin, the effect is also different from your image. The skin overall is and there is no smooth dipping in the skin between the ribs. Rather, the ribs stick out relatively abruptly., and the effect is not along the leading and trailing edges as in your image.

This also isn't a matter of newer materials. The same two effects are visible on period photos I can find, as well (these are just easier to see what's happening).

Dux · « **Reply #3 on:** December 27, 2007, 06:22:25 PM »

Wasn't arguing the look of the Corsair, Sax... just disagreeing with the use of the term "sagging" (us old guys are sensitive about the word).

FWIW, though... I'm not convinced that those wings in your photos are fabric. Maybe they were originally, but... looks an awful lot like aluminum to me. Can you be certain? (yes, I know it's just the outer parts that were fabric... but maybe this bird got rebuilt with newer wings at some point?)

Rudder... fabric. Elevators... I'm not so sure.

Saxman · « **Reply #4 on:** December 27, 2007, 08:02:27 PM »

If you look at the edges of the panels in the first pic, the part that was historically fabric looks a little different than the areas known to be aluminum. Additionally, the period images I've seen appear to be the same.

As for the elevator, check out some of the closeups on that site, there's definitely a difference between the elevator, and the aluminum-skinned part of the horizontal stab. For one, there's strips that run the length of the rib, and the ends are covered by another strip of material that run across the leading edge of the elevator. There's a clear where you can see the outline of one strip under the one on top.

Mus51 · « **Reply #5 on:** December 28, 2007, 12:04:43 AM »

Hey Sax, since were looking at it, why don't you skin that F4U? I think it kinda looks cool!

RATTFINK · « **Reply #6 on:** December 28, 2007, 01:26:03 AM »

SaX, are you going to make this skin?? Also, could you send me some tips on how to skin? I'm good with photoshop & Graphic Arts.

Saxman · « **Reply #7 on:** December 28, 2007, 07:35:55 AM »

No I'm not. It's a modern warbird paint job and probably not authentic. Unless you can find me period pics.

I'm currently working on the bmf F4U, and VMF-214's 17740 (interesting aircraft, had the left wing replaced by one from an older aircraft so it has roundels on BOTH lower wings, one being the simple star in blue surround).

Ratt,

Check out Fester's skinning tutorial. That's what I've been going by as I've been revising my F4U basic skin.

Mus51 · « **Reply #8 on:** December 28, 2007, 08:41:56 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Saxman
No I'm not. It's a modern warbird paint job and probably not authentic. Unless you can find me period pics.

I'm currently working on the bmf F4U, and VMF-214's 17740 (interesting aircraft, had the left wing replaced by one from an older aircraft so it has roundels on BOTH lower wings, one being the simple star in blue surround).

Ratt,

Check out Fester's skinning tutorial. That's what I've been going by as I've been revising my F4U basic skin.

I want picture

MjTalon · « **Reply #9 on:** December 28, 2007, 08:57:09 AM »

I second the motion, i'm a hog dweeb, would love to see a picture, please

!

Saxman · « **Reply #10 on:** December 28, 2007, 09:13:51 AM »

17740, flown on at least a couple occasions by Boyington.

SS11, F4U in bmf. Can't remember the squadron off-hand.

Both of these are early versions.

Dux · « **Reply #11 on:** December 28, 2007, 11:09:22 AM »

Nice!

RATTFINK · « **Reply #12 on:** December 28, 2007, 11:19:32 AM »

Excellent work SaX

Lord ReDhAwK · « **Reply #13 on:** December 28, 2007, 05:08:02 PM »

Sax,

Im really looking forward to seeing those in-game. Any chance you could post a link to the period pic of the one with the double roundels on the bottom of the wings. Would love to learn more about it.

ReDhAwK

Saxman · « **Reply #14 on:** December 28, 2007, 05:46:13 PM »

I had a larger picture somewhere, but this is it.