Author Topic: Utilizing the P-51D's instability  (Read 7299 times)

Offline dtango

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Utilizing the P-51D's instability
« Reply #30 on: December 31, 2007, 10:28:38 AM »
Urchin:

Here's a snaproll quick recovery with a single rotation:




Here's a flat plate:



Both maneuvers are initiated with an asymmetric wing stall.  With the flat plate, however, there is a longitudinal pitching moment to flip the aircraft head over tail vs. just a rotation only about the lateral axis with a snaproll.

I don't have any idea what Nath used to do.  In the past I've looked for different energy dumping maneuvers in the Mustang.  The "flat plate" was just one of them :).

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Offline Urchin

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Utilizing the P-51D's instability
« Reply #31 on: December 31, 2007, 11:18:50 AM »
In the second clip of your flat plate - You see in the first part where the airplane seems to "slide" sideways before rotating, so that your p-51 seems to be basically rotating through a plane perpendicular to the plane of motion?  

The "move" I am talking about starts similar to that, except the plane of rotation is the same as the plane of motion.  The tail end of the plane basically skids around to the front, so that you are actually flying backwards.

I suck with ascii art, but I'll try to diagram this.  

With your move, the plane is doing something like this

----------------> velocity vector


(x) (coming out of screen) nose at 'beginning' of your move

^
 |     axis of rotation
 |  


With the move I am talking about

---------------> velocity vector

  (x) (coming out of screen) nose at 'beginning'

<------->  axis of rotation


So in my head, it is basically just like fishtailing your car on ice.  You are pointing <- , while still travelling (however briefly)  ---> .

Offline Krusty

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Utilizing the P-51D's instability
« Reply #32 on: December 31, 2007, 11:25:10 AM »
Seems like exploiting a buggy FM to me. Anybody tries that and they get no more consideration of skill from me than the average stick stirrer. They might put more effort into it, but the end result is the same and the average stick stirrer did it with better economy of motion.



EDIT: I'm not saying it doesn't take some skill to pull it off. Sure, knock yerself out. However, if I see it pulled against me I'm not going to think "Gee, whiz! That was a swell move!" I'm going to think "that stick-stirring son of a b----!" I'm just saying regardless of how hard the move is, it's probably not going to garner any respect.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2007, 11:35:23 AM by Krusty »

Offline dtango

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Utilizing the P-51D's instability
« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2007, 11:47:35 AM »
I understand what you're saying Urchin.  I can't replicate that.  With the flat plate I can get it to where you have more of a momentary flying backwards motion, but it's not completely 180 degrees of the direction of forward travel.

Here's an example of a flat plate with more "backwards" flight:



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Offline Tac

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Utilizing the P-51D's instability
« Reply #34 on: December 31, 2007, 11:50:25 AM »
Tango,

Those are very neat animated gifs. You should make one for most ACM moves and put them up in a training site of sorts.. or give them to HTC to put up on the  main AH website.

Offline dtango

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Utilizing the P-51D's instability
« Reply #35 on: December 31, 2007, 02:23:22 PM »
Thanks Tac.  Actually I got the idea from Badboy who has posted a couple of animated gif's BFM (rolling scissors and barrel-roll defense) which are very nicely annotated with text too.

I just used this as a mechanism in lieu of being able to embed windows media or a youtube flash player into the thread.

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Offline Kweassa

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Utilizing the P-51D's instability
« Reply #36 on: January 01, 2008, 07:33:08 PM »
Quote
Seems like exploiting a buggy FM to me. Anybody tries that and they get no more consideration of skill from me than the average stick stirrer. They might put more effort into it, but the end result is the same and the average stick stirrer did it with better economy of motion.


 On the contrary, I find it an amusing testament to the accuracy of AH FM.

 With the same sequence of stick inputs, the AH P-51 entered a state of accelerated stall that is virtually identical to those of the real-life P-51s piloted by Cpt. Bryan and Lt. Candelaria.

 In other words, under similar conditions, the AH P-51 reacted almost exactly as the real life P-51 did.

 Now if that's not a testament to how accurate and reliable AH FM is to the real thing, what is?

 Anyone seen a P-51 in other sims ever do that? I sure haven't.

Offline TUXC

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Utilizing the P-51D's instability
« Reply #37 on: January 01, 2008, 09:22:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Seems like exploiting a buggy FM to me. Anybody tries that and they get no more consideration of skill from me than the average stick stirrer. They might put more effort into it, but the end result is the same and the average stick stirrer did it with better economy of motion.



EDIT: I'm not saying it doesn't take some skill to pull it off. Sure, knock yerself out. However, if I see it pulled against me I'm not going to think "Gee, whiz! That was a swell move!" I'm going to think "that stick-stirring son of a b----!" I'm just saying regardless of how hard the move is, it's probably not going to garner any respect.



One major difference is that these moves are intentional last-ditch maneuvers to get a bandit off your six. Stick stirring is that guy that sits 200yds in front of you and just bounces everywhere by frantic and random control inputs, normally performed by someone who has no clue how he might force you to overshoot.
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Offline scottydawg

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Utilizing the P-51D's instability
« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2008, 02:18:22 PM »
I dunno about those flat plate maneuvers dtango is illustrating, seems like you'd lose some control surfaces pulling that kind of thing, at the least, and find yourself in a really bad stall if not.

Seems to me to be a weird FM bug, but I am not an expert in any way, just seems kind of implausible.

Offline scottydawg

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Utilizing the P-51D's instability
« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2008, 02:19:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
EDIT: I'm not saying it doesn't take some skill to pull it off. Sure, knock yerself out. However, if I see it pulled against me I'm not going to think "Gee, whiz! That was a swell move!" I'm going to think "that stick-stirring son of a b----!" I'm just saying regardless of how hard the move is, it's probably not going to garner any respect.


If someone pulled that in front of me I would A) be in total awe or B)think they were hacking.  Depends on who it was.

Offline BaldEagl

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Utilizing the P-51D's instability
« Reply #40 on: January 02, 2008, 02:46:03 PM »
I once spun a Typhoon flat around it's axis.

I was climbing from enemy's and as I ran out of steam I tried to dip the left wing.  The torque wouldn't allow me to so I cranked full left rudder and the thing just spun flat around it's axis pointing the other way.

Had I been aware of what was going to happen I'd have had the perfect HO or deflection shots.  They were all lined up.

I've tried this a few times since but haven't been able to do it again.
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Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2008, 03:09:40 AM »
Quote
Seems to me to be a weird FM bug, but I am not an expert in any way, just seems kind of implausible.


 Apparently, it seems to be an already well known, real life phenomenon in the RC plane circles and acrobatic flight pilots.

 I've consulted about this with our domestic flightsim community (obviously non-English speaking Koreans) and they've come back with a response that it is what's known as "a variation of a postive snaproll". It doesn't seem to be a common maneuver to do with warplanes, but the RC community definately has a lot of experience with exactly the same sequence of maneuvers WW or dtango has demonstrated above.

 Therefore, it is not a "bug" or an "implausible" thing to happen - it's a real life aerobatic phenomenon that can be repeated with practice.

 I'll see if I can translate some of their comments

Offline TequilaChaser

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Utilizing the P-51D's instability
« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2008, 10:29:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
it's a real life aerobatic phenomenon that can be repeated with practice.
 


seeing it performed over & over shows it is not a fluke....keywords as Kweassa posted is Can Be Repeated With Practice

and a handful of players that are well known and have been here for some time have showed us just how much it takes to reallly learn your favorite plane type through & through......
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Offline Kweassa

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Utilizing the P-51D's instability
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2008, 12:38:58 AM »
Okay, here's a comment from our flightsim community. Some of the oldtimers of AH might actually recognize him; "Skidrow" Kim is a long time aviation enthusiast and an AH player, used to fly way back in WB2 and AH1, with other great Korean pilots such as raomi "Rraf" and "feed".


Skidrow

 It seems to me that it's a variation of a snaproll, which "kazi" once asked me about with 190s. This maneuver is already well known in the remote-control planes or acrobatic planes circles, and not an uncommon thing to witness.

 The "pattern" of stall the plane falls under greatly differs according to which way you kick the rudder, or how you fiddle with the stick, and all such maneuvering is collectively referred to as "snap roll". A sort of a controlled spin, if you will.

 RC planes or airshow planes are generally much more responsive than warplanes, and therefore it may be easier for the controllers or pilots to handle the plane under such a stall. The above accounts (accounts of D. Bryan and R. Candelaria) can be an example why it is more uncommon to expect such maneuvering in warplanes. It's probably due to the difficulty (and unpredictability) of the maneuvering that this certain "maneuver" never became a part of more or less 'orthodox' ACM.

 The link below explains how such a maneuver is done with RC planes:

Hobby Info website link

(*links to a Korean webpage. I'm sure the non-Korean speaking folk would still immediately relate the pictures that depict the RC contol and RC plane motion, with actual stick maneuvering in real-life planes)

 I notice that Captain Bryan's AAR on the HTC forums also mention that he used a 'snap roll'.  If I may add a bit, I think Widewing's maneuvering (as shown in the film) could be related to pure snap rolls, but dtango's "flat plate" seems to be a bit different.

 A snap roll usually initiates an uncontrollable roll which rolls the plane a lot faster than normal aielron rolls (hence, the name 'snap roll'), but dtango's "flat plate" seems to be a cross between the 'snap roll' and an extreme barrel roll.

 A snap roll may look very different according to how it is initiated, but the end result is always the same: with full stick and rudder input, the plane goes over the normal flight envelope.


 This Youtube video, is from an RC simulation where you plug in the RC controls to your PC. It depicts two different forms of snap rolls.

 And this Youtube video is of an actual aerobatics plane demonstrating snap rolls. Around 00:37 is a "negative snap roll", and 2:20 a "positive snap roll".

Offline moot

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Utilizing the P-51D's instability
« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2008, 01:00:28 AM »
Thanks Kweassa, DTango, and Widewing :)
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