Author Topic: Air-gravity powered aircraft?  (Read 863 times)

Offline Viking

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Air-gravity powered aircraft?
« on: January 02, 2008, 03:27:54 AM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPbu5UeW4uk&feature=related

Interesting concept, but would it be practical?

Offline AquaShrimp

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Air-gravity powered aircraft?
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2008, 04:46:29 AM »
The plane would have to be built very lightly in order for helium to provide most of the lift.

Offline Holden McGroin

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Air-gravity powered aircraft?
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2008, 06:54:38 AM »
Let's see:

1. Compressed air exists in the plane before it takes off the first time.

2. Helium (which was produced somehow) exists in the a/c before liftoff.

3. The a/c rises on the buoyancy of helium, and compressed air is used to power thrust turbines.

4. When max buoyancy altitude is reached, compressed air is let into the gas bag area to contract the gas bags.

5. Wings (which i guess have yet to be used) are swept back and the a/c glides.

6. During the gliding phase, fans on the outside power air compressors to recharge the compressed air.

7. Once the minimum altitude is reached, the cycle begins anew.

---------------------

A few questions:

A. In order for me to get from a to b, I must use energy, and for this a/c to get from a to b it must use energy.  Yet they say the a/c uses no fuel.  Are they saying the production of helium and the production of compressed air are somehow outside their energy balance?

B. why are the wings variable sweep if they are not used except for one flight regimen?

C. In the old dirigible days, ground handling, especially putting the airships in the hanger was extremely difficult.  How are you s’posed to handle a hybrid dirigible in the wind?

I am a big fan of dirigibles, and would like to see a helium Hindenburg cruise line.  You could see the wildebeest drive across the Serengeti or watch the Porcupine herd travel across the arctic plain while seated in the observation deck.

But I think this machine as explained is a pipe dream which violates the second law.  There is always a fuel cost unless you are just blowing in the wind, and even then you must pay for the helium.
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Offline Viking

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Air-gravity powered aircraft?
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2008, 07:03:43 AM »
A: Yes. The helium is part of the plane; it is not released. The compressed air is resupplied for every cycle of flight. In the video they say the plane uses compressed air driven turbines to produce forward thrust, but in reality they don't actually need to. When the aircraft is positively buoyant it can glide forward using the force of the buoyancy just like it uses gravity on the downward leg. The compressed air is used to compress the helium balloons and make the aircraft negatively buoyant. It should work ... I think.

B & C: No idea.

Offline Ghosth

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Air-gravity powered aircraft?
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2008, 07:45:13 AM »
If designed right the energy needed could come from solar.

Offline splitatom

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Air-gravity powered aircraft?
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2008, 08:11:29 AM »
sounds like a slow 163 minus the guns and roket moter
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Offline crockett

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« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2008, 08:52:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ghosth
If designed right the energy needed could come from solar.


That would add more weight unless they could come up with a lightweight film solar panel. I don't think they need it, as they claim energy is produced by the turbines.

Holden McGroin

2. Helium (which was produced somehow) exists in the a/c before liftoff.

I don't think the helium is used as a fuel but rather as a buoyancy method. I don't think it's released during flight so it doesn't have to be refilled.

If it will work or not I have no clue as I'm not an engineer, but I do agree it would like have issues in high wind or storm conditions. Still it's kinda cool though.
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Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Air-gravity powered aircraft?
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2008, 09:54:13 AM »
The plane is supposed to have a constant amount of helium which is initially compressed with compressed air. When the ac takes off the compressed air is released which will move the ac and lift it off. When the compressed air reservoir depletes it releases helium which replaces eventually enough air to make the ac buoyant. Using this buoyancy the ac uses it's wings to glide upwards. Once max altitude is reached and plane starts to slow down, it's turned into a dive by compressing a part of the helium again (using a smaller reservoir of compressed air remaining). During the glide propellers are activated which will compress necessary air to repeat the cycle.

Helium = steady, compression and thrust generated from gravity.

Of course it will have a very hard time in stormy weathers and/or with supermorbidly obese passengers. :D
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Offline Charon

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Air-gravity powered aircraft?
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2008, 11:37:30 AM »
Sounds too heavy to me for the lifting volume. Look at the volume of gas required to lift a blimp with a simple gondola.

Charon

Offline Tac

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« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2008, 11:51:37 AM »
Interesting concept.

Now all they need to do is transform the concept into a 4-man vehicle and make us the first flying car, fuel-free. Woot!

Offline moot

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Air-gravity powered aircraft?
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2008, 12:08:09 PM »
http://www.jpaerospace.com

IMO the puncture problem will be the biggest obstacle to this sort of vehicle.
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Offline Tac

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« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2008, 12:35:27 PM »
ewps didnt see that link moot put in there. nm

Offline eskimo2

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Air-gravity powered aircraft?
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2008, 01:59:11 PM »
Great idea; I bet they will get Miss Teen South Carolina to fly it...

Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2008, 06:19:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Charon
Sounds too heavy to me for the lifting volume. Look at the volume of gas required to lift a blimp with a simple gondola.

Charon


And this is where my question comes in.  For helium to have any buoyancy, it must be in full expanded mode, i.e. no compression.  A tank of compressed helium has no buoyancy.

The volume needed to be able to lift off an aircraft like that would be a lot more than they think it is.



Unless I'm completely wrong.
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Offline AKIron

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Air-gravity powered aircraft?
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2008, 06:22:04 PM »
The question is can the plane compress enough air in it's descent to compress the helium sufficiently. Shouldn't be too dificult to simulate that.
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