Author Topic: Jerry Crandall's Dora book (Read 4016 times)

Bodhi · « **Reply #45 on:** January 09, 2008, 06:44:57 PM »

Just because it is commonly accepted does not make it right. In 1490, it was commonly accepted that the world was flat.

You can try and turn this around all you like. It makes no difference. Everyone knows that you are a self proclaimed "know-it-all" that never admits when he is wrong! Do two year old 90 foot pines ring a bell?

Grow up and stop acting like a 12 yr old. Stop acting like an authority and listen instead of telling people they are wrong.

moot · « **Reply #46 on:** January 10, 2008, 03:52:09 AM »

Bodhi what about those scans?

Bodhi · « **Reply #47 on:** January 10, 2008, 09:36:15 AM »

Sorry few problems at the end of the day. I will try to get to it at lunch time.

MiloMorai · « **Reply #48 on:** January 10, 2008, 04:17:06 PM »

Your correct Krusty, the all yellow 190 has been 'busted'.

Christer Bergström:
The whole story about Major von Graff/Graf commanding JG 2 "Richthofen" and flying an all-yellow Fw 190 originates from Pierre Clostermann's "The Big Show". In my book "Graf & Grislawski" (published in August 2003) I examined that closely.

In the latest edition of "The Big Show" (published in 2004, with the foreword written in September 2003), Pierre Clostermann made this new addition regarding the pilot of the all-yellow Fw 190:

"Later we learned that it was not Graff, but maybe Oesau". (p. 50.)

On the orange/red 152, since the pilot was worried about flak it was most likely only the underside that was painted, like on the Doras that were so painted.

Bodhi · « **Reply #49 on:** January 10, 2008, 08:36:25 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by MiloMorai
Your correct Krusty, the all yellow 190 has been 'busted'.

Christer Bergström:
The whole story about Major von Graff/Graf commanding JG 2 "Richthofen" and flying an all-yellow Fw 190 originates from Pierre Clostermann's "The Big Show". In my book "Graf & Grislawski" (published in August 2003) I examined that closely.

In the latest edition of "The Big Show" (published in 2004, with the foreword written in September 2003), Pierre Clostermann made this new addition regarding the pilot of the all-yellow Fw 190:

"Later we learned that it was not Graff, but maybe Oesau". (p. 50.)

On the orange/red 152, since the pilot was worried about flak it was most likely only the underside that was painted, like on the Doras that were so painted.

How does that debunk an all yellow FW190?

As for the Ta 152, the book is very clear in that in was painted all over in Orange/Red and that everything was painted over except the national insignia.

Bodhi · « **Reply #50 on:** January 10, 2008, 08:37:15 PM »

Moot, did not get to the scans again today. Will do it tomorrow morning.

Stampf · « **Reply #51 on:** January 10, 2008, 10:12:47 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Krusty
Well it was one of those books where they didn't try to do the ...say... Gunston-quality profiles. Most of the graphics looked a little like that (more cartoony, less shadows/depth). However, I can't think the artist would just paint it from imagination. Generally, even inaccurate artwork has a basis.

I've been hoping there's some other reference to this, so that I could skin it. I've not found what inspired this artist just yet.

EDIT: I heard that JG11 stole/took one of the 152Hs for "testing" (basically combat testing), and the single yellow band is the JG11 colors.

I wonder if it's just mis-labeled as JG301?

Anybody know of any JG11 TA152 references we can compare it to?

In fact, Stab/JG11 did not "steal" (1) Ta, they had 4-6 at one time. Gentlemen sometimes you have to look at the men who were there during the chaos of '45., to fill in the holes in the history, the links in the chain. I have argued this before. The Stab/JG11 Ta's were not used for combat and only for "famialarization" flights. Hptm. Bruno Stolle, Kommander of JG301 was also acting Kommander of Stab/JG11 for a few months. What would you fly if you were Hptm, Stolle, on your way to and from Rechlin and Leck? And if you had operational Kommand of every Ta in theatre, what would you get your "mates" seat time in?

Anyway, (4) Stab/JG11 Ta's (unarmed) were jumped by RAF spits on a transfer flight to Leck. (2) crashed, (1) belly landed, and (1) was later captured by the Brits. Wk #150-010. Yep thats right! Green 4 supposed JG301 bird, in the National Air and Space Museum is actually a Stab JG11 ride, as documented below, by Cottbus, as well as Wk # 150-009.

Sorry Moot, no info on that colorful one at the moment. Do not believe it is the missing Stab/JG11 ride(s) though.

Free the Ta152!

MiloMorai · « **Reply #52 on:** January 11, 2008, 03:56:47 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Bodhi
How does that debunk an all yellow FW190?

As for the Ta 152, the book is very clear in that in was painted all over in Orange/Red and that everything was painted over except the national insignia.

Do you know who Christer Bergström is? He is in a better position than you are.

As for the 152, it was only a suggestion.

Quote

On page 152 it also mentions that on 13 March 1945, the promised 30 to 50 Ta 152's were not delivered due to production delays. It also says that Aufhammer pulled the few Ta 152's from III Gruppe and reassigned them into a small unit designated the Stabsschwarm.

He did so because he received an order to hand over the a/c to the Geschwaderstab.

Bodhi · « **Reply #53 on:** January 11, 2008, 10:28:11 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by MiloMorai
Do you know who Christer Bergström is? He is in a better position than you are.

Bergstrom is an excellent author, but I do not believe he knows all. Especially considering the chaos in the Luftwaffe in '45.

I never said I was an expert and I have never debunked anything on this board or anywhere else without solid proof. The only reason I got into this argument is that I hate seeing some people on this board read a couple of books and think they are an flipping expert. Especially when they are proved wrong on many occasions. It's rediculous.

As for my beliefs on history, I have a tendency to believe those who was actually there, and generally not someone that rules something out completely even though there is no definitive proof.

A for them handing over the aircraft to JG 11, hell they never built the minimum of 30 promised. So, the reasoning of production delays definitely seems to fit the bill.

Charge · « **Reply #54 on:** January 11, 2008, 12:05:48 PM »

Graff's plane had marking G3+SL but another book does not recognize such unit number to exist. G2, G6 and G9 did exist though.

Only Blindflugschule that used single engined fighters was 10.

http://www.ww2.dk/air/schule/b10.htm

-C+

Edt. G3+ NJG 101 (101st Night Fighter Wing)
http://www.rlm.at/cont/archiv02_e.htm

MiloMorai · « **Reply #55 on:** January 11, 2008, 02:48:04 PM »

You got a burr in your undies Bhodi? Relax, chill.

The III./JG301 152s went to Stab JG301. The order to do so was issued March 13 1945. Stab JG 11 did not get their 152s til the end of April 1945 and most likely came from Rechlin as no two were alike.

morfiend · « **Reply #56 on:** January 11, 2008, 04:14:51 PM »

Stamf,
couldn't help but notice 150 027 is{was} a 152 C,tested with MK103 30mm.

Too bad it doesn't qualify to make it into the game.

Bodhi · « **Reply #57 on:** January 11, 2008, 05:19:02 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by MiloMorai
You got a burr in your undies Bhodi? Relax, chill.

The III./JG301 152s went to Stab JG301. The order to do so was issued March 13 1945. Stab JG 11 did not get their 152s til the end of April 1945 and most likely came from Rechlin as no two were alike.

Regarding the burr, your comment above is what raised that.

As for the Ta 152 machines, that is exactly what I posted with regards to the D9 book's info.

Bodhi · « **Reply #58 on:** January 11, 2008, 05:24:37 PM »

Moot,
our scanner at work just crapped out. Sorry but it is in almost constat use all day long.

I will try and hook the one I have at home again and try again tomorrow.

moot · « **Reply #59 on:** January 12, 2008, 02:06:42 AM »

Dang, talk about bad luck...
Thanks for the effort.