who made the best cc weapons in WW2?

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by B@tfinkV
close combat weapons im talking rifles and side arms. thompsons, M1, enfield, gw3 whatever. i am not an expert but i have played medal of honor a bit. from my stupid virtual experiences i would say i like the M1 Garand rifle and that german MP submachine gun. the Garand seems like an absolute beast with its rate of fire and acuracy. must have been a huge advantage fighting any ill equiped enemy, well from these silly games i've played anyhow.

but what was it like in real life? im sure the best close combat weapons must have been made by either the Germans or the Americans.

who made the best weapons looking back with the hindsight we have now?

Currently on and off again reading the book "Brothers in Battle- best of Friends" Written by Bill "Wild Bill" guarnere, And edward "Babe" Heffron" The real life charactors of Band of Brothers fame.

According to Bill Guarneres first hand experience. He is of the opinion the German Weaponry was by far superior to anything we had on the battle feild. Particularly their automatic weapons, artillary and tanks.

[lasersailor184]

I'm currently helping to develop The Third Reich, mostly suggesting ideas and Beta Testing.  http://www.ttrgame.com/  It started off as a UT99 mod, with the standard USA vs. Germany gameplay, but with a realism slant.  Currently they are porting all of the UT99 stuff into a new game engine (Torque), and have just released an internal Alpha.

It won't seem too lively, there's only 3-4 part time developers for it.

[Arlo]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
I'm currently helping to develop The Third Reich, mostly suggesting ideas and Beta Testing.  http://www.ttrgame.com/  It started off as a UT99 mod, with the standard USA vs. Germany gameplay, but with a realism slant.  Currently they are porting all of the UT99 stuff into a new game engine (Torque), and have just released an internal Alpha.

It won't seem too lively, there's only 3-4 part time developers for it.

As long as you're not working for Voss. When it get's fleshed out more share the pretties.

[BaDkaRmA158Th]

Originally posted by Yeager
I wounder how many service men died while being hammed down on by germans after hearing that retarded "PING, im highly vulnerable now, shoot me while i reload"
====
Based on the number of Krauts I have hammered in CoD after reloading my mighty Garand I would hazard a guess........

hmm.....................

ZERO

Now move along kid, yer buggin me.

Dont wanna start a bich fit.

Okay so you would compare life to a video game, cute.
I bet your CoD game doesnt take into account how badly a mans hands will shake when he is in fear for his life.
Or how water makes a clip slip from your hands, how dirt can make the next mag impossible to "slap in"

Take those thing into consideration before making your accounts based on a piss poor xbox game, ahhhh thank you.

[-tronski-]

CQB - the PPSH, maybe the M1/M2 Carbine
med range - Garand, although I have a soft spot for the SMLE

 Tronsky

[B@tfinkV]

lots of good stuff to read here thank you all. yes frodo i was meaning real life, my government wont let me play with these things apart from with a playstation controller.

lasersailor you say you own these guns would it be possible to unload a full magazine from the garand in 2 seconds? and how bad is the recoil for unsuported rapid fire?

[Slash27]

Originally posted by B@tfinkV

lasersailor you say you own these guns would it be possible to unload a full magazine from the garand in 2 seconds? and how bad is the recoil for unsuported rapid fire?

You can unload as fast as you can pull the trigger Bat. Are talking about shooting from the hip refering to unsupported?

[AquaShrimp]

The M1 Garand was originally designed to have a 20 round magazine like the BAR.  But the army insisted it have a top feeding clip.  


Edit:  Another variant that never saw duty was the T20E2. This variant is, at its simplest, a Garand modified to accept Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR) magazines, and has selective fire capability, with semi- and fully-automatic modes.

The ultimate Garand I say.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Tell you what, genius. My Dad used to keep those empty clips in his pocket and toss them so he could shoot people who charged him thinking he was reloading. And he wasn't alone in doing that, either.

As Patton said, the M1 Garand was quite possibly the finest battle implement ever devised by man.

The Thompson was pretty damned good as well, although extremely expensive and sort of heavy.

The Colt 1911 pistol, chambered in 45 ACP remained in service for some 70+ years, and in fact really never has been completely withdrawn from service.

I can verify your fathers story. As I've read several accounts of the soldiers doing exactly what you just said.

Seems the germans did in fact rush our guys on hearing that "ping" till our guys got wise and did exactly as you said..

Again using Bill Guarnere as a refrence. claims, and I quote in his own words.
Page 121

"The Germans were technologically advanced. Perfecting their arsenal for decades. Think about it. Fighting since WWI. Their Tanks were superiour, And the MG-42 blew away any guns we had. the had alot of firepower. The bullets let go brrrrrrrrt! Four hundred bullets come out at once. American machine guns went Bap-bap-bap-bap-bap! "

Now Im sure we could argue Bills timeline to an extent.
And possiby the rounds fired from the 42. I dont know
But I dont think any of us now can argue with his opinion and experiences of facing the German weapons. their effectiveness. And compairing them to ours from actual combat experience up close and personal.

He after all has the scars. Both physically and mentally to prove it

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

For the most part, yes, the German tanks were superior to our stuff up to and including the Sherman.  The advantages the Sherman held were mobility and reliability. Honestly, OTHER than the weapons fielded by the infantry, the U.S. did lag behind Germany. But I do not find the U.S. infantry weapons to be inferior in quality to the German issue stuff. The only place where the MG 42 was superior to U.S. machine guns was rate of fire and the ability to swap barrels, and that superior at inspiring fear, but not necessarily more effective at killing or incapacitating enemy soldiers.

I do respect the opinions of guys like Garnier and Heffron. I believe those are very honest opinions based on experiences in real life. And I completely understand what they said about the MG 42 and why. Honestly, when you face the enemy, and you come out on top by a very slim margin in a very hard fight, you are very likely to feel the enemy had weapons at least equal to yours if not superior. And understandably so.

[lazs2]

Interesting subject...  I would take the M1 garand for a battle rifle and the 45 1911 for a pistol... close running would be the p38 but the caliber is too weak.

I like both the M3 and the thompson for sub guns and the russian one.

Some myths flying around...  The garrand is the fastest gun to reload of all semi autos..  even a little faster to reload than clip fed bolts since.. it is all one operation.  You will notice pics of GI's with garand clips stuck all over them even on the sling.. they had an excellent web gear that held 10 clips but the gun loaded so fast that opening a pouch seemed too slow to em.

the 7.62 x 25 round myth.. it does have as much energy as a 45 auto round.. or very close depending on where it was manufactured..  but... all WWII ammo was ball ammo..  high velocity ball ammo that is small diameter is at a disadvantage over lower velocity heavy and big ammo.   punch a small hole in someone and not hit bone and the bullets energy is mostly wasted.. the big 45 expends all it's energy into the target.  

I could use about anything but those are the weapons I would prefer.   I own or have owned about every WWII bolt and semi auto gun and have fired most of the sub guns.   and these are my choices.

lazs

[Fishu]

http://www.guns.connect.fi/gow/suomi1.html

[yankedudel]

Here is my 2nd favorite forum.  I am sure you will all get much info from it.

Surplus Rifle Forum

This forum is not dedicated to one type or one country.  It has info for everything.  

I would have to agree that the Garand would be my pick to go into battle with.  

SMLE if very accurate and has a similar rate of fire as a semi-automatic rifle.

I love my Mosin Nagant M91/30 though.  The most simple rifle I have ever had the pleasure to hold.  7.62x54 ammo not so easy to get though.

Regards,

Yank

[B@tfinkV]

Originally posted by Slash27
You can unload as fast as you can pull the trigger Bat. Are talking about shooting from the hip refering to unsupported?

rgr, say you are fighting house to house and using the weapon at close ranges where aiming is not so important.

by unaupported i mean firing standing up and not crouching or supporting the barrel in the prone possition.

from what lazs tells us, you could hit somebody through the belly with the garand round and they might not die for a few days, long enough to shoot back at you anyhow. the smaller calibre round needing to hit hard bone or vital organs to kill a man outright. the Garand's ability to fire so rapidly must have been a huge bonus for the US troops.

[lasersailor184]

Originally posted by B@tfinkV
rgr, say you are fighting house to house and using the weapon at close ranges where aiming is not so important.

by unaupported i mean firing standing up and not crouching or supporting the barrel in the prone possition.

from what lazs tells us, you could hit somebody through the belly with the garand round and they might not die for a few days, long enough to shoot back at you anyhow. the smaller calibre round needing to hit hard bone or vital organs to kill a man outright. the Garand's ability to fire so rapidly must have been a huge bonus for the US troops.

The .30-06 ain't a small bullet.  And recoil doesn't necessarily move the barrel directly up.  Sure you can unload the gun as fast as possible, but most bullets besides the first won't be too accurate.

The M1 Garand was originally designed to have a 20 round magazine like the BAR. But the army insisted it have a top feeding clip.


Edit: Another variant that never saw duty was the T20E2. This variant is, at its simplest, a Garand modified to accept Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR) magazines, and has selective fire capability, with semi- and fully-automatic modes.

The ultimate Garand I say.

Uh, it's called the M14.

I love my Mosin Nagant M91/30 though. The most simple rifle I have ever had the pleasure to hold. 7.62x54 ammo not so easy to get though.

Unless something has changed recently, 7.62x54r is very easy to get a hold of.  It's cheap and you can buy a lot of them for very little money.