Author Topic: Never lose sight of the enemy (Read 1298 times)

Krusty · « **on:** January 07, 2008, 09:56:59 AM »

It's true! If you've got a 1 v 1 and you lose sight of the enemy in such a way you don't know exactly where they are, you're in deep trouble.

Let me clarify that. If you pull up and you know he's going "thataway" and is going to pass under your nose, or you're pulling lead, etc, you know where he is, so you've got mental "sight" of him.

What I mean is, when you're thinking "where the frak did he go?" you're in deep bantha poodoo. I was in a 190a5 and was engaged by a higher faster yak9u. We did a HO pass, he pulled hard to come around, but I basically didn't bother, I turned more to take a pot shot at a lower target then ran (I was alone, 10k, over an enemy field, with 12+ red planes on the deck and 1 yak at my alt. I took a potshot at a n1k2 and then headed for home as fast as I could.)

So after a bit the yak9u wants an easy kill. He chases me down. Did I mention VOX went out before this fight started? Yeah, no backup for me. As he gets closer and closer I figure i'm going to make this a hard kill for him. Normally a 190a5 is no match for a yak9u.

As he gets to 800 yards dead astern I pull a couple of scissors, always watching him behind me (or knowing mentally where he is) at all times. I force him ... well... not quite an overshoot, but I make him break one way while I go the other. We kind of get into this tree-hugging, terrain-following scissors/chase/overshoot/etc type of fight. It seemed to last forever. On some of the scissors he got a couple of pings, but with his weak weaponry I took no damage. The very last ping he landed on me took a flap off, but I wasn't using them anyways.

So, we're in this cycle towards the end of the fight where he comes in, I can break, break back, and get him to overshoot, and I'm actually confident I've got this guy completely. I'm actually seeing how I'll shoot him down, and have the plan.

Here's the point:

Then it happened. Somehow I lost sight of him, as he passed behind me. I got into a snap stall or some sort of small spin and had to correct. I thought we were crossing in opposite directions, but I look back, left, right, up, all around. I'm wondering if he ran away or crashed or something. NOPE!

My loss of sight almost cost me the fight. Turns out he was 600 behind me, then 400. Right about that time a friendly squaddie of mine dove in on him and made him break, so I was able to turn around. Yak9U came in again and I forced another overshoot or two, and I landed a 20mm in the cockpit as he passed in front of me. The Yak9u exploded.

Knowing where your enemy is is vital

I'd turned the fight around. I went from running, to annoyed, to actually certain I'd finish him off in short order. Then when I lost sight, game over. Without my squaddie there to scare the yak, at JUUUST the right time, I'd have been popped. Keep sight of your target! Or you become the target!

I just saw another thread and it really made me want to drive home to some of the "newer" folks that keeping an eye on the emeny really helps.

Having an 8-way hat thumb-button on your stick helps, plus another "look up" button so that you can look any direction, then any direction + "up" doubles your effectiveness as a pilot.

Alky · « **Reply #1 on:** January 07, 2008, 12:02:45 PM »

That's one of my biggest problems, I never seem to pull up as much or turn as tight as the bad guy, regardless of the plane I fly. Right after I engage, I lose sight of him and a few seconds later the pings tell me it's all over

I have the CH Pro setup and have more views programmed than I know what to do with but by the time I check them I'm on my way to terra firma

Krusty · « **Reply #2 on:** January 07, 2008, 12:23:21 PM »

Alky, when I fly I have my right hand on the stick, and my left hand on the throttle. My right thumb is always on the 8-way hat. I use it all the time (it's wearing out a little, actually!). My other hand, by the throttle, has an easy (read: comfortable to use) button for the "up" view. Just keep flying the stick with your right hand, but use the hat to look around. I suggest mapping "hat up" to "forward_and_up view" and when you can't see the target in the side view (for example) press the "up" view button with your throttle hand.

Just make sure you've got your individual views optimized and saved. Move your head around and hit F10 to have it go there every time in that view.

Saxman · « **Reply #3 on:** January 07, 2008, 12:59:58 PM »

Nicely stated. I would like to add that as much as this holds true for a 1v1, I'd say it goes double for a multi-plane engagement.

Any time I'm in a 1 vs many, or many vs many and all the sudden one contact goes out of view and I can't pick him up that guy becomes the foremost thought on my mind.

IE, couple weeks ago I was defending a V base in a Charlie Hog when a P-38 and P-47 come in, (I could see they were both heavy) slightly below my altitude. The 47 was in on the base, while the 38 appeared to be edging more towards my direction. He was also closer to my altitude so I labelled him my primary threat. I set my approach to where I could keep both targets in view, but almost immediately after I got into it with the 38 I lost track of the Jug. The entire rest of the scrap with the 38 I didn't pursue the fight nearly as aggressively as I ordinarily would have as I tried to track my target and locate the Jug, thinking he was going to try to get in behind me while the 38 had me busy.

Ultimately I never DID figure out what happened to the Jug, and assume he must have pressed on to the field while his wingman tangled with me and went down to field ack, because once I finished the 38 I was alone and the guns on the field weren't firing. But that one lost con had enough of my attention that it altered the way I handled to bad guy I COULD see.

SlapShot · « **Reply #4 on:** January 07, 2008, 01:02:23 PM »

Alky ... ya gotta be quick with the views.

If someone is merging from my left at say 10 o'clock and goes under me, the second I can no longer see him, I switch to rear-right view immediately and pick him up as he passes underneath.

As Krusty said ... lose sight ... lose the fight.

The AH "viewing system" is what sets this game apart from all the others. The viewing system is a natural as one could get using an 8-way hat and a toggle "up view".

B@tfinkV · « **Reply #5 on:** January 07, 2008, 01:07:50 PM »

good post krusty. if you dont mind me posting here is a 10 minute furball in a P51-D. 5 mins of 'smart flying' and then 5 mins of 'stupid flying'. both equaly effective to some degree in a decent plane like the mustang.

both passive and agressive flying on my part, nothing speacial for either gunnery or manouvers but definitely what i consider to be solid SA.

even at the end turn fighting spits and zekes it is not a lapse in SA that kills me but a lapse in pilot concentration and judgment of the enemy.

still it nice to watch death in the face knowing youve done your best

10 min Mustang Furball

like morpheus said once, the only time you should be looking forward in a fight is when youre shooting.

whiteman · « **Reply #6 on:** January 07, 2008, 02:04:42 PM »

I completely lost a guy on a merge last night for about 10 sec's. I got lucky cause I think he got all excited that a gave him an easy shot and he missed. I got him on the over shoot.

68Wooley · « **Reply #7 on:** January 07, 2008, 03:45:07 PM »

Krusty - I agree with you wholeheartedly, with one caveat:

Looking all around you is vital, but only as long as you keep your plane in the air. There's no point looking up or backwards as your plane plows into the ground.

I used to regularly auger as I was coming out the bottom of a rolling scissors whilst looking up or forwards and up at the bad guy. I often misjudged the rising horizon in those views and assumed I was good to clear the ground.

BaldEagl · « **Reply #8 on:** January 07, 2008, 04:03:15 PM »

All I have to say is...ohoh... blackout.

Krusty · « **Reply #9 on:** January 07, 2008, 04:10:44 PM »

Wooley's got a point, hehe, you have to go back and forth between your front views and your enemy. You watch a film with my head views and it jumps around a lot. Some of it's checking my forward path, some of it's checking the enemy, and some checking for any unseen enemy!

WMLute · « **Reply #10 on:** January 07, 2008, 08:08:15 PM »

I was training a squaddie who's flown AH for years and discovered he didn't have the UP key mapped to his j/s and was having to take his hand off his controlls and use the 5 key on the numpad.

I got 'em to add the UP key to his j/s and his flying has dramatically improved.

In a fight it is rare that i'm looking forward except when I have guns on 'em.

Oldman731 · « **Reply #11 on:** January 07, 2008, 09:07:14 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by 68Wooley
Krusty - I agree with you wholeheartedly, with one caveat:

Looking all around you is vital, but only as long as you keep your plane in the air. There's no point looking up or backwards as your plane plows into the ground.

I used to regularly auger as I was coming out the bottom of a rolling scissors whilst looking up or forwards and up at the bad guy. I often misjudged the rising horizon in those views and assumed I was good to clear the ground.

For me, at least, the very hardest thing to learn about air combat sims was how to fly the plane while looking backwards. Typically people look at the instrument panel, then look back to see if the guy is still there, then look back at the front to see where the plane is going, and how fast. As HR said (long ago), "Wrong!" It takes a lot of practice, but you shouldn't need to look out the front of your plane at all when you're in a fight with a guy who's behind you.

- oldman

TequilaChaser · « **Reply #12 on:** January 07, 2008, 10:33:58 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Oldman731
For me, at least, the very hardest thing to learn about air combat sims was how to fly the plane while looking backwards. Typically people look at the instrument panel, then look back to see if the guy is still there, then look back at the front to see where the plane is going, and how fast. As HR said (long ago), "Wrong!" It takes a lot of practice, but you shouldn't need to look out the front of your plane at all when you're in a fight with a guy who's behind you.

understanding the whole concept of SA is your 1st goal, then spending the rest of your online flight SIM life trying to improve on it constantly is a neverending uphill climb........

yes some are naturals.........but noone ever fully masters the SA ( Situational Awareness ) part of online Combat sim flying.......1 day, at 1 time or another you going to screw up and get your clock cleaned.......and SA is also like your everyday life...somedays you are "SPOT ON"....and got it all together.....other days you misjudge or simply overlook the slightest little bit of information ( wether it is inside the cockpit or outside around you ) and you find yourself back in the tower wondering what you did not see coming......

SA is 1 of the hardest parts to flying combat fighter simulations put right there near the top with judgeing your opponents "Energy State".......becoming profecient in these 2 areas will move your skills in flying higher up the ladder probably more than any other 2 skill sets combined........

and alot of the old timers stressed these 2 practicing of skills more than any others......

Good Topic ~SALUTE~

DoNKeY · « **Reply #13 on:** January 07, 2008, 11:12:53 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by TequilaChaser

understanding the whole concept of SA is your 1st goal, then spending the rest of your online flight SIM life trying to improve on it constantly is a neverending uphill climb........

yes some are naturals.........but noone ever fully masters the SA ( Situational Awareness ) part of online Combat sim flying.......1 day, at 1 time or another you going to screw up and get your clock cleaned.......and SA is also like your everyday life...somedays you are "SPOT ON"....and got it all together.....other days you misjudge or simply overlook the slightest little bit of information ( wether it is inside the cockpit or outside around you ) and you find yourself back in the tower wondering what you did not see coming......

SA is 1 of the hardest parts to flying combat fighter simulations put right there near the top with judgeing your opponents "Energy State".......becoming profecient in these 2 areas will move your skills in flying higher up the ladder probably more than any other 2 skill sets combined........

and alot of the old timers stressed these 2 practicing of skills more than any others......

Good Topic ~SALUTE~

QFT! If I had one wish here in AH, it would most likely be to be able to judge enemy E states down to +/- 10 mph or better:D .

donkey

Widewing · « **Reply #14 on:** January 07, 2008, 11:15:02 PM »

Guys, I teach a simple method... It works too.

Learn to fly where you are looking and don't spend much time looking where you are flying.

If you watch films of 1v1 fights (I do dozens of these every week), you begin to see a common problem.

Pilots spend way too much time looking forward (default view) when they are maneuvering in a 1v1 fight.

When you watch one of your films, be sure to check the "use recorded views" box. Note how much time you spend looking in some other direction other than where the enemy is. You can't see what they are doing if you are not watching them. Granted, down in the weeds there is the real hazard of hitting a tree or flying into the ground. However, with some practice, you will find that only a brief glance forward is sufficient to avoid obstacles.

When you have the enemy in sight, you will never be surprised by what he does. When you spend a significant portion of the time looking forward, you will miss when he reverses, goes vertical or performs any other out of plane maneuver. If the enemy is in front of you, that's great. But, the odds are, especially just after the merge, that he will be somewhere else besides in your windscreen.

The ability to visually track the enemy (one or more) is THE most important ACM skill you must master. Everything else takes a backseat to it. If you lose sight, you have probably lost the fight (assuming the enemy has not lost sight of you too).

Practice tracking the enemy visually, then practice flying where you are looking.

If you want to quickly build this skill, I suggest fighting 2v1 duels in the TA. Being able to track multiple bandits is a sign of a skilled pilot. It takes a lot of practice, and some guys will never fully master it. Nonetheless, it is something everyone should dedicate time to if you are serious about building skills.

My regards,

Widewing