Author Topic: How much extra hp could the R-2800 deliver?  (Read 1748 times)

Offline bozon

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6037
How much extra hp could the R-2800 deliver?
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2008, 07:04:44 AM »
I remember it mentioned several times that the 56th were over boosting their jugs. There is a famous quote by Johnson claiming that his plane could reach 72" manifold pressure - which would be something like the N's engine but on a much lighter plane.
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8801
How much extra hp could the R-2800 deliver?
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2008, 12:11:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by skaltura
"Oh, and I'm not a big fan of Truman either..."

Why so?


At the outset, let's give him credit where it was due. The Marshal Plan, pushing for civil rights (including integrating the Armed Services), his handling of the Berlin Blockade, and the recognition of Israel. All major accomplishments and all historic in result.

Some of his proposed social programs were little more than open socialism. His gutting of the military with small, very tight defense budgets would haunt us when the Korean War broke out. His almost timid approach to fighting that war certainly emboldened the Soviets and Chinese. Truman was very much like Wilson in his approach to international affairs. I preferred TR's method of negotiating while cleaning your weapon... Wilson's League of Nations failed miserably. Truman was a vigorous supporter of the United Nations, which is now generally looked at as largely corrupt and generally incompetent by many Americans.

What bothers me most about Truman was his association with Tom Pendergast and the blatant election fraud associated with his Senate run of 1934. Today, that election would have overturned and indictments would be flying around like confetti. His association with Larry Bell was scandalous. Truman's cronies funneled a great deal of defense money to Bell, when far more qualified contractors were warned not to step on Bell's shoes. North American Aviation stepped on them anyway.

Truman's behavior often reflected his willingness to accept help from decidedly shady characters (not that this is any different from the Clinton and current Bush administrations). This was evident throughout his career.

Anyway, those are some reasons why I don't consider Truman a particularly good President.

My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: January 18, 2008, 12:17:07 PM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline skaltura

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 13
How much extra hp could the R-2800 deliver?
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2008, 08:45:51 PM »
Perhaps a smaller nationīs citizenīs view on TRīs gunpoint negotiation tactics would differ from yours...E.g. we Finns had less than pleasant experiences on those tactics in the hands of Molotov and Stalin...

And by our standards American election system feels highly corrupt and undemocratic (such as the need to specifically register to vote, here we get voting rights automatically on reaching 18) as well. But thatīs OT!

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8801
How much extra hp could the R-2800 deliver?
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2008, 09:47:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by skaltura
Perhaps a smaller nationīs citizenīs view on TRīs gunpoint negotiation tactics would differ from yours...E.g. we Finns had less than pleasant experiences on those tactics in the hands of Molotov and Stalin...

And by our standards American election system feels highly corrupt and undemocratic (such as the need to specifically register to vote, here we get voting rights automatically on reaching 18) as well. But thatīs OT!


Remember, TR negotiated the end of war between Russia and Japan. His maneuverings as Under-Secretary of the Navy pretty much was responsible for ejecting Spain out of the western hemisphere. TR was a strong believer of the Monroe Doctrine and Manifest Destiny, and even expanded upon it. He was determined to keep European powers out of the western hemisphere, and he was successful. That said, Roosevelt was careful to cultivate good relations with virtually every European nation.

Roosevelt was nothing like Stalin or Molotov. He was the antithesis of these men. He was a populist President, who battled big business for the well being of the common man. He was the worlds first true environmentalist, determined to preserve as much wild country as possible. America's great national park system would not exist except for Roosevelt. Find a good biography of TR. You'll discover why many historians list America's greatest Presidents as Washington, Lincoln and Roosevelt.

As to our requirements to vote; you have to be a citizen and at least 18 years of age. Registration is where you establish your citizenship via proper documentation.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline skaltura

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 13
How much extra hp could the R-2800 deliver?
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2008, 10:26:25 AM »
Speaking of Manifest Destiny, believing in that is in my book less than positive aspect for its spirit is responsible for the most complete genocide ever (=that of the Indians), in terms of peoples destroyed.

Offline Saxman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9155
How much extra hp could the R-2800 deliver?
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2008, 11:35:06 AM »
I disagree, skaltura. If you go back to the early Middle Ages, classical antiquity and the biblical period you'll find PLENTY of examples of entire cultures being wholly exterminated.

Just look at Britain. The Celtic peoples came in and displaced the original native inhabitants. Then Romans effectively drove them out of significant parts of the island into the areas that are now Scotland, Ireland and Wales. The Saxons then destroyed or displaced the Romano-Britons to those same areas, before THEMSELVES being destroyed or assimilated by the Normans between the 11th and 12th centuries. This is, of course, excluding the attempt by the Danes to establish hegemony over Britain before the Danelaw was forcibly ended.

It's the nature of humanity. People like to wag their fingers at the American treatment of the natives here (actually, look at what the Spanish did in South America in the 17th Century. Can't blame THAT on Monroe) but the simple FACT is that human beings have been eradicating other cultures since the first caveman picked up a rock and bashed his neighbor's head in.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8801
How much extra hp could the R-2800 deliver?
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2008, 08:14:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by skaltura
Bodie also claims how "the eight heavy machine guns of the P-47 put in a target more weight than the 4 cannons of the Tempest per second" which is an outright lie. When confonted with the facts, he became abusive.


I was thinking about this, and in retrospect think that referring to Bodie as lying was a bit strong. Mistaking, yes, but I doubt he would deliberately lie. He is, if nothing else, stubborn.

A little research (thanks to Tony Williams) shows that the Tempest could shoot a total weight of 6.5 kilograms per second. The P-47 could put out 4.85 kilograms of lead every second.

However, the P-47 fired 100 rounds to the Tempest's 50 (per second). Therein is found the argument that the USAAF/USAF used to justify MG only armament. They would argue that by firing twice as many rounds, they are twice as likely to score hits. Inasmuch as fighters were not especially resistant to .50 cal API, they thought this to be adequate. Conversely, the US Navy countered this argument by showing that since a 20mm round did at least 4 times as much damage, 50% less hits would still result in twice as much damage to the enemy aircraft. Thus, by late 1944, the Navy wanted cannons on all new fighter designs.

Meanwhile, the USAAF/USAF maintained the 6 gun .50 cal armament on their fighters until mid way through the Korean war, when their thinking began to change. When it proved difficult for the F-86 to knock down the simple, but tough little MiG-15s, pilots began seriously questioning the Browning .50 cal MG as a viable air to air weapon. Their uproar was substantial. Eventually, the F-86 was armed with 20mm cannons (F-86H). Before the first F-86H ever flew, the Navy already had its navalized version, the FJ-2 (very similar to the F-86E) in limited squadron service, armed with four 20mm cannon (the F-86 was given production priority by the Pentagon, so Navy needs took a back seat). At the time, North American asked the USAF to consider the 20mm cannon to standardize production with Navy contracts, reducing costs for both services. North American stated that the production line could be tooled for cannon installation without interrupting F-86 deliveries. Air Force Brass refused, claiming that they would have to spend too much effort in setting up the required logistics. Oh, and the .50 cal was still good enough (paraphrased).

Personally, I think the overwhelming reason that the USAF didn't switch to 20mm cannons at that time had less to do with logistics than with good old inter-service rivalry. If the Navy said black, the Air Force, in a Pavlov's dog reaction, would say white. That "conditional reflex" continues to this day, albeit that budget limitations have fostered greater inter-service cooperation these days out of necessity.

History is often stranger than fiction..  ;)

A friend once suggested a novel way to reduce defense spending. His theory was that the budget should be proportional to the number of functioning brain cells within the Pentagon. However, this idea was flawed in that it would leave only enough money to arm the Boy Scouts with wrist-rocket sling shots.. Insufficient to defend the free world.

My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: January 21, 2008, 08:21:12 PM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline SgtPappy

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1174
How much extra hp could the R-2800 deliver?
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2008, 08:41:01 PM »
:rofl
I am a Spitdweeb

"Oh I have slipped the surly bonds of earth... Put out my hand and touched the face of God." -J.G. Magee Jr.

Offline AquaShrimp

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1706
How much extra hp could the R-2800 deliver?
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2008, 10:20:13 AM »
According to a study done on aerial combat in WW2, 50cal aerial ammunition did its damage mainly by igniting either the ammunition stores, or fuel tanks on enemy planes.  API (armor piercing incendiary) was found to be the most effective, while ball was the least effective.

I can see how the Mig-15 would be hard to destroy, all of its ammunition is in the nose.  I'm not sure where the fuel tanks are though.

Offline Angus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10057
How much extra hp could the R-2800 deliver?
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2008, 02:42:19 PM »
The 50's do fine ripping structures to pieces as far as I know.
It is a fast and mean bullet.
(and noisy)
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner MÃķlders)

Offline Tilt

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7358
      • FullTilt
How much extra hp could the R-2800 deliver?
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2008, 05:44:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
the US Navy countered this argument by showing that since a 20mm round did at least 4 times as much damage, 50% less hits would still result in twice as much damage to the enemy aircraft


Similarly the VVS determined that the Yak9T was more effective than the Yak9D.

Whilst this was biased by the T's capabiliies against bombers as well as  fighters  

VVS combat statistics had it that an average of 31  NS-37mm rounds were required to down an enemy aircraft against an average of 147 20mm Shvak rounds.
Ludere Vincere