Author Topic: Ki-84 U.S. testing  (Read 5525 times)

Offline hubsonfire

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Ki-84 U.S. testing
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2008, 08:15:19 PM »
By my reckoning, it is fast enough to beat the fire crews to the crash site every single time. I will test this shortly.
mook
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Offline Karnak

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Ki-84 U.S. testing
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2008, 08:22:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Stoney74
And what resource, other than your own deduction, did you use to form this opinion?  By this reasoning, a Spitfire should be faster than a P-47, but its not, not by a long shot.

Depends on the P-47 and Spitfire in question now, doesn't it?  :p

As to the Ki-84, I doubt it was ever faster than the F4U in service, but I bet it was a lot closer to the F4U's speed than other Japanese fighters.
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Offline Stoney74

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Ki-84 U.S. testing
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2008, 08:54:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
Depends on the P-47 and Spitfire in question now, doesn't it?  :p

As to the Ki-84, I doubt it was ever faster than the F4U in service, but I bet it was a lot closer to the F4U's speed than other Japanese fighters.


I wasn't thinking of the Spit XVIII.  I was thinking more along the lines of the Spit IX or VIII vs. the Jug.  Touche', but you get my point.

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2008, 09:39:24 PM »
Yeah, I know, but comparing the Spit at 1,500hp to the P-47 at 2,200hp wasn't quite like comparing the Ki-84 at 1,990ho to the F4U at 2,200hp.   Put the ballpark same power in the Spit and P-47 and the Spit is faster.

Thing is, I doubt a service Ki-84 ever actually put out 1,990hp.
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Offline SgtPappy

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Ki-84 U.S. testing
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2008, 10:00:43 PM »
Karnak proved my point. Thanks for the data, dTango, much appreciated :aok

Though no, Ki-84's never did produce that much power; they were lucky if they got 1800 hp. But with the recent engine studies I've seen, the Hayate's engine was built to produce around 1900 hp, 260 hp shy of a Corsair. So with this rating, they Ki-84 should at least perform more like an F4U.

Not a whine thread, it's just a statement on how a Ki-84 in best condition would perform.
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Offline Karnak

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Ki-84 U.S. testing
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2008, 10:49:50 PM »
I read that entire old thread.  I didn't come off sounding too well.  :p

The Ki-84 as originally released in AH was in a sad state.  I am quite happy with it as it is now and the current AH Ki-84 is much more like what I was expecting to get.
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Offline hubsonfire

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Ki-84 U.S. testing
« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2008, 12:17:10 AM »
I remember quite an uproar over the Ki, and the complete disappointment upon its release. I didn't fly it a great deal, or often, but have recently given up on the Spit 16 in favor of the Ki-84. I'm surprised it isn't one of the most common planes in the MA.
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Offline Saxman

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Ki-84 U.S. testing
« Reply #37 on: January 23, 2008, 12:51:05 AM »
Even with reduced performance compared to the conceptual stats, I still believe a well-flown Frank is probably the F4U's most dangerous opponent. If I can, I try to pick them off as quick as I can in a fight.
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Offline Stoney74

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« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2008, 02:00:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
Yeah, I know, but comparing the Spit at 1,500hp to the P-47 at 2,200hp wasn't quite like comparing the Ki-84 at 1,990ho to the F4U at 2,200hp.   Put the ballpark same power in the Spit and P-47 and the Spit is faster.


Ok, poor example perhaps.  Substitute the P-51 for the P-47, and my argument is the same.  The Pony is bigger, heavier, and has the same horsepower advantage over the Spit as the Corsair has over the Ki-84.

There are so many more factors involved that are quantifiable, like drag area, cooling drag (which is a huge performance factor for radial engined planes), trim drag, wing efficiency, etc.  My point is that there are aerodynamic considerations that are swept under the rug by Pappy's earlier post.  Take Formula 1 Air Racing for example.  All the planes weigh the same, they have the same wing area, and run the same engine.  And yet, there are those aircraft that go out and turn 265mph laps, and those that go out and turn 170mph laps.  Moreover, you look at the former champions plane compared to the former runner up, and you'd swear the runner up plane should be faster, simply because it looks sleeker and more modern.

You guys provide some resources that prove your point, I'll buy it, and learn something in the process.  But to simply deduce that the Ki-84 "should" perform better with nothing to base it on, other than a document that we would all agree evaluated no normal Ki-84, is a stretch.

Offline Stoney74

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Ki-84 U.S. testing
« Reply #39 on: January 23, 2008, 02:10:59 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by BigPlay
Actually the Japs had some pretty amazing aircraft on the drawing board as well. The P-80 was a piece of crap so please don't use that as an example. The bearcat would have been interesting and was a ubber plane that would have given any axis plane a run for it's money. The US really didnt have another great plane until German captured info became available.


I don't think he was talking about the P-80 at all.  While the F8F was designed, in part, based on Grumman's observations of the FW190, the F7F, P-51H and P72 were not, and were performance monsters compared to late generation Japanese aircraft.  And, they would have been in combat before the anticipated end of Operation Olympic as opposed to the drafting table.

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2008, 02:52:50 AM »
I think the post war US test kinda did prove it, at least at lower altitudes.  The Ki-84 has at least some aerodynamic refinements over earlier Japanese fights, such as lamilar flow wings.

As I said though, no Japanese service Ki-84 would put out those kinds of numbers, so I don't understand what you're asking to be proven.  I think the current AH Ki-84 is about as close as we can expect to get to the real one's numbers and it is definately slower than the F4U.


Also, it should be noted that in post war interviews Nakajima and Mitsubishi engineers bluntly stated that the US was about three years ahead of Japan in terms of powerplants and aircraft design techniques.  The Japanese engineers themselves were under no illusion of the situation.

Japan had no miracle wonder fighters about to come out at the end and turn the thing.  Neither did Germany.
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Offline Charge

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Ki-84 U.S. testing
« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2008, 05:06:18 AM »
"Japan had no miracle wonder fighters about to come out at the end and turn the thing. Neither did Germany."

How is that relevant to this discussion? Other than just pointing out your quite obvious bias against axis rides and technology?

Germany had advanced technology in its disposal but it did not "turn the tide" despite the great propaganda value it had. But it still was advanced technology and German scientists were in high value after the war -strangely despite the political aspirations they may have had during the war.

Japanese scientists probably tried all they could to provide more competitive fighters but I'm thinking there were many hindrances they faced which may have made it more difficult to them than their allied counterparts. It seems that their engine technology was lacking and that dictated many design guidelines of their fighters like lightness and thus lack of proper armour which later on in defensive fighting became fatal.

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"While the F8F was designed, in part, based on Grumman's observations of the FW190."

"In part"? Well, reading the FW190 test against Corsair and F6F you really start to wonder what really impressed the US designers in 190's design, doesn't it?

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Offline Karnak

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Ki-84 U.S. testing
« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2008, 09:47:12 AM »
You misread what I meant or I said it badly.  I was refering to BigPlay's comment that Stoney quoted.

Both Japan and Germany had good engineers who where just as good and dedicated as anybody in the US, UK, or USSR.

But neither of them had superaircraft about to come out that would dominate the Allies.  The J7W, for example, while very bold was ordered into production before it had even been flown simply due to the desparation of the Japanese government.  In the two test flights it did have there were indications of serious stability issues and it is unlikely that barely trained pilots would have been able to get anything out of it but death.  The He162, while an absolutely astounding weapon program even without taking Germany's declining situation in late '44 and early '45 into account, was likewise too much to handle for barely trained pilots.

In game terms I would love to see how the A7M would do if Horikoshi had been allowed to use the 2,200hp Mitsubishi MK9C engine as he wanted instead of being forced to design it to take the Nakajima Homare, as in the N1K.  He told the Navy it would not have the desired performance, the Navy insisted on using the less powerful Homare to simplify their supply issues, he designed the A7M1 with the Homare and the Navy rejected it due to poor performance compared to the desired performance.  He redesigned it to take the MK9C, but the program was then delayed by an earthquake and US bombing.  If he had gotten the go ahead to use the MK9C from the start the US probably would have been facing A7Ms in combat sometime in the last 6 months of 1944.


What I object to is the idea that sites like Luft46 give uninformed people that Germany or Japan had things that were about to see service that were far in advance of anything the Allies had and that just isn't true.

Had the war in Europe lasted longer with Germany holding its borders the only likely difference is that the Do335, He162 and Ta152 would have seen some heavy usage.  The Me263 would probably have gotten into combat too.

For Japan, had the war lasted longer (imagine no nukes) the J7W1 and A7M2 would probably gotten into it.  Certainly late designs like the Ki-102 and J2M5 would have seen heavier usage too.  Things like their massive bombers capable of reaching the US were simply wish list things that were never going to happen in the wartime situation Japan was in.

Against these things we have Allied aircraft in the wings such as the F7F and F8F which were in service and on the way to the front.  We have the Hawker Fury and the De Haviland Hornet and Vampire on the way.  Too often when talking about the "almost" made it stuff Germany and/or Japan had people forget about the Allies stuff that also almost made it or was on the way.
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Offline SgtPappy

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Ki-84 U.S. testing
« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2008, 08:19:45 PM »
Stoney, I'm not really trying to prove anything, I'm just trying to figure out what the Ki-84's true potential was. If it was actually 427 mph, I'm not going to go to the Wishlist forum and ask for a 427 mph Frank, no, because our Ki-84 is fine AFAIK.

I'm just curious as to the Hayate's true potential, that is all. So far 've actually found no documentation at all supporting the figure, but it is possible that the US tested the Frank as I saw a photo of a Frank with U.S. markings as mentioned... not true evidence, but it raises a few questions.
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Offline Karnak

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Ki-84 U.S. testing
« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2008, 09:23:34 PM »
SgtPappy,

The US did test the Ki-84 post war.  I seem to recall that the one that was tested is the one that was returned to Japan in the 1970s.  As I recall, it was the last flyable Ki-84.
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