Author Topic: Spit9 vs 190A-5 (Read 635 times)

trap2000 · « **on:** January 22, 2008, 11:16:32 AM »

A couple of tactics I’ve seen 190 drivers use:
When I’m about 1000yds behind them, they start a shallow dive to build up speed, pull a tight Split S, build up speed again, then pull up sharply and enter a zero g zoom climb. A variation of this is to skip the Split S and simply pull up sharply and initiate the zoom. Now I can’t follow their instantaneous turn rate at 300+mph either up or down without blacking out and burning lots of e. Even working the throttle and up elevator trim I still end up flying a larger radius which eventually puts the 190 behind me and usually above me as well. How do I defeat the 190s at this game?

trotter · « **Reply #1 on:** January 22, 2008, 11:23:52 AM »

In most simple advice, start to recognize their intentions earlier and cut throttle. You can bleed off E easier than they can, and you won't be in a situation where you have to follow a loop at 300mph.

If you prefer to fight in the vert, keep your speed up, and when they split S after a shallow dive, you simply start going vert right there. At about equal E, given his manuever, and the climb rate of the Spit 9, you will ultimately end up with the perch over him.

Or, if the 190 is planning on a shallow dive and then zooming to the vert without the split S, simply get level as soon as you recognize this intention. Part of his zoom, therefore, will be just to meet your altitude, and you should be able to zoom with him the rest of the way up.

humble · « **Reply #2 on:** January 22, 2008, 01:06:55 PM »

Actually its really pretty simple, pull up and away rolling the airframe inverted then pull down and thru to the con. This is really a move for the 190 or P-47 but it will work for a spitty reasonably well here. Basically its a vertical lag roll attack...your looking to bleed your E by storing it then pulling back down to the con...

Be prepared for him to pull up into you but if you were +E to start you should be able to rope him fairly easily since he either cut throttle or is pulling alot of G's scrubbing E...

The last thing you want to do is play follow the leader or scrub your E to the point you cant press the fight...

As for the 2nd if he's gonna zoom you then its a question of E state...if you cant follow him then stay low and break 30 degree's or so away. your looking for him to reverse back into you and you "remerge" mirroring his reverse to set up a climbing merge for you hoping to pull him into a vertical scissors...if he goes down just keep going up and do your best to equalize E state...

SlapShot · « **Reply #3 on:** January 22, 2008, 01:49:58 PM »

Scenario 1

It sounds like you are assuming a "pure" pursuit on the enemy ... he then pulls a split-S and you still follow with a "pure" pursuit split-S.

What I would do under those circumstances is nose down enough to let him know that I am still coming for him, but keep the pursuit to more of a "lead" pursuit for the "just in case".

Once he does the split-S, I can choose to follow, or I can pull off and up to maintain alt dominance.

If I decide to follow the split-S, because I was in "lead" pursuit, my split-S does not have to be as drastic as his was and if I did it right, I should have no problem pulling off the split-S and maintaining my advantage behind him.

Scenario 2

Again it sounds like you are assuming a "pure" pursuit on the enemy.

Because you are in a Spit, and it sounds like you don't really have enough smash to overtake him, and you won't overtake him, you should be in a passive "lead" pursuit.

Once he goes nose down, I would follow with a slight nose down (still in "lead" pursuit) to keep my E up.

Now, because I have maintained a "lead" pursuit, once I see him pull for the zoom, so do I, and because I was in "lead", I can theoretically "cut him off at the pass". I may not be right on his tail in the zoom, and he may be pulling away ever so slightly, but I have yet to see any plane within D400-D600 out zoom my 20mm or .50 cals.

The object here was for me to maintain a position that would give me the chance to make things equal and give me the chance to get a decent guns solution to get a shot off.

A lot of Air-to-Air combat, in this game, has to do with anticipation and positioning yourself correctly for what you anticipate. What you anticipate does not have to be a single anticipated action ... decisions and positions could be based on ... he may do this or he may do that ... so I will do this to cover both of the outcomes.

The more you fly ... the more fights you get in ... the better your anticipation skills become and so will your decisions.

trap2000 · « **Reply #4 on:** January 22, 2008, 02:29:08 PM »

Okay, I visualize lag pursuit as flying to a point behind the con. Another words, point the nose of my aircraft behind the tail of his. This is an easy visualization for me to make when the con is turning either horizontally or obliquely. But how do you assume lag pursuit when the con is directly off your nose and flying away from you? The same goes for the vertical lag roll. The lag roll I'm familiar with has a horizontal component and I can't quite get the mental picture when everything is happening in the vertical. Also, good points on not following the leader and anticipation.

SlapShot · « **Reply #5 on:** January 22, 2008, 02:50:32 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by trap2000
Okay, I visualize lag pursuit as flying to a point behind the con. Another words, point the nose of my aircraft behind the tail of his. This is an easy visualization for me to make when the con is turning either horizontally or obliquely. But how do you assume lag pursuit when the con is directly off your nose and flying away from you? The same goes for the vertical lag roll. The lag roll I'm familiar with has a horizontal component and I can't quite get the mental picture when everything is happening in the vertical. Also, good points on not following the leader and anticipation.

WOW .. MY BAD !!!

After thinking how I was going to answer your question in this posr, I realized that I consistently used the word "lag" when I really was meaning to use "lead".

I have changed the text within my other post ... sorry about that.

I will try to get something that portrays what I am talking about.

Lead pursuit on a split-S ...

Lead pursuit on a zoom ...

This is what I think snaphook is describing ... you roll inverted in the blue section ...

trap2000 · « **Reply #6 on:** January 22, 2008, 04:16:04 PM »

The pictures really helped SlapShot. After looking at them a bit I can see that I was using pure and sometimes lag pursuit. When the fight turns into a tail chase I'm thinking of initiating a shallow climb and maybe break 30 degrees away banking e and gaining seperation; if the cons does a split S I should be set up for the lag roll and if they pull up sharply I can lead turn them in the vertical.

SlapShot · « **Reply #7 on:** January 22, 2008, 04:30:03 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by trap2000
When the fight turns into a tail chase I'm thinking of initiating a shallow climb ...

This would all depend upon what you are flying and what they are flying.

In a chase, while diving, most times I will dive too, but not as steeply. This way I am not losing significant ground and at the same time, keeping my speed up, and maintaining the "lead" stance.

If I am chasing in a dive, and I really have no chance of catching them and getting a guns solution, I will then initiate the shallow climb anticipating that they will also climb and I don't want them to get too much of an alt advantage on me if they decide to turn back and re-engage.

humble · « **Reply #8 on:** January 22, 2008, 06:13:20 PM »

Yup that pretty much it, recognizing that if he has a horizontal component your pulling up and rolling away from the break...ideally putting your lift vector in your choice of pursuit angles. This is Robert Johnsons "pet move" in the jug but it works suprisingly well in AH vs a con who's split'Sing or in a flat or low yoyo breakturn. It's a consrvative move that maximizes E retention, maintains 100% visability when it counts and allows you to maintain "passive pressure". I actually use it in the A-20 suprisingly often since it "reloads" the zoom nicely.

Slap is describing a much more aggresive move which is better (IMO) when your an equal or better pilot and/or comfortable that you've got the E state pegged. In effect your creating an immediate threat that forces the con to respond and bleed E at the same time you can either mantain lead for the shot or transition to a rear hemisphere lag while the con is ideally evading the threatened shot and is now neg E with a con able to saddle up at will.

To me the split s is normally one of two things...a bad pilot who normally will die sooner or later. Or a good pilot attemting to set up a vertical rolling scissors or similiar fight. My tendency is to try and establish the "perch" and force a different fight on him instead of getting into a fight that would give the 190 a reasonable chance...

bozon · « **Reply #9 on:** January 23, 2008, 03:08:54 AM »

It is quite simple:
A heavy wingloaded plane such as the 190 (or P47, or P51 etc...) will usually cut inside your turn when starting at high speed. You figured it right, he blows his speed leaving you too fast. This is their only chance to evade you, if they cannot simply dive and run. So you can expect this move and prepare for it.

People gave you here nice examples and explanations of maneuvers, but here is the general principle:
When you are too fast to follow you opponent's flight path - don't try. Extrapolate a future point he is going to be in and that you can reach and fly there. This is what all these fancy named moves (yoyo, lag roll etc.) do. You stop following his flight path and set a new future interception point.

If you are just a little to fast, what can help is to use a lot of rudder opposite to the direction of bank in order to slide the plane. This burns a lot of speed too and help you "saddle up".

rauchen · « **Reply #10 on:** January 24, 2008, 10:52:55 PM »

I drive 190s a lot. If I see you go up while I'm doing the split s I'm going to extend like mad and get more e. Or just HO you if I'm late for dinner